Where have all the members gone...?

[MikeyB-17]

It’s not the first time a question like this has come up-‘why is everyone leaving???’ And yet here we are, still here. It is, as Smithy says, the way of things on a discussion forum. As for ELC, I’ve had a glance over the ’Eastman hating’ threads, and the vast majority seem to me to be along the lines of ’I love ELC’s stuff, but I can’t afford the prices they’re charging these days’. Most folk understand their position, don’t necessarily disagree with it, but can’t justify spending that sort of money. Some point out flaws (which do exist, and I don’t think it’s unfair for a discussion forum to point that out), but I can’t find much evidence of anyone outright hating ELC.

 

[CombatWombat]

@MikeyB-17
I hate ELC......not because of build quality or price......it's the damned 80's Goth "Batwing" armholes on my "in-house" A2 (where the armholes are too wide but set a little too far down the sides)
In saying that I think it was made in the 80's lol

 

[warguy]

Ok guys since we are back on Eastman…..

Thank you ZuZu for this post to illustrate my point

“Show an example of an Eastman with a genuine mouton collar. You can't.”

This is the second thread where he has posted this statement.

Most of the best and brightest members on this forum are participating in this discussion, yet none of you challenged this statement. The earlier statement was not challenged either. Do my learned colleagues here really believe this nonsense? Here is my Eastman M422A.

Please check John Levers interesting recent thread on mouton. Starts with a pretty darn good definition of mouton. If the collar on this Eastman ain’t mouton I dont know what is. It looks smell and feels identical to several original Navy jackets in my collection.

Yet none of you saw fit to challenge Zu Zu’s statement. I dont mind criticisms on Eastman products. I found it quite interesting to learn my Eastman Monarch A2 should have a blackened zipper. Probably would not have known that if not called out here on this forum. The rest of that jacket, especially the hide is so fine I really don't care much. But I think it is ridiculous when inaccurate statements like the one made earlier in this post go un-challenged just to perpetuate a bias toward a product. Okay I am done, I have said my peace and I continue a deep passion for leather flight jackets, both real and reproduction but I am really just getting more and more frustrated with this forum.

 

[ZuZu]

Ok guys since we are back on Eastman…..

Thank you ZuZu for this post to illustrate my point

” Eastman has no mouton jackets on any of their products”

Most of the best and brightest members on this forum are participating in this discussion, yet none of you challenged this statement. Do my learned colleagues here really believe this nonsense? Here is my Eastman M422A.

Please check John Levers interesting recent thread on mouton. Starts with a pretty darn good definition of mouton. If the collar on this Eastman ain’t mouton I dont know what is. It looks smell and feels identical to several original Navy jackets in my collection.

Yet none of you saw fit to challenge Zu Zu’s statement. I dont mind criticisms on Eastman products. I found it quite interesting to learn my Eastman Monarch A2 should have a blackened zipper. Probably would not have known that if not called out here on this forum. The rest of that jacket, especially the hide is so fine I really don't care much. But I think it is ridiculous when inaccurate statements like the one made earlier in this post go un-challenged just to perpetuate a bias toward a product. Okay I am done, I have said my peace and I continue a deep passion for leather flight jackets, both real and reproduction but I am really just getting more and more frustrated with this forum.

OK. I was wrong. Eastman has mouton on a FEW of their jackets- but most that I see online are brown sheepskin- and there are myriad examples. When I saw the B-15 Eastman on eBay someone posted i said- "Ït's mouton!" But my criticism is valid- many (but not all as you point out) Eastman jackets have non-mouton collars.

I apologize for upsetting you. I tend to be absolutist sometimes- your posting of the picture would have gone a long way to countering my argument- maybe no one else has an Eastman with such nice mouton.

 

[Kermit3D]

Ok guys since we are back on Eastman…..

Thank you ZuZu for this post to illustrate my point

“Show an example of an Eastman with a genuine mouton collar. You can't.”

This is the second thread where he has posted this statement.

Most of the best and brightest members on this forum are participating in this discussion, yet none of you challenged this statement. The earlier statement was not challenged either. Do my learned colleagues here really believe this nonsense? Here is my Eastman M422A.

Please check John Levers interesting recent thread on mouton. Starts with a pretty darn good definition of mouton. If the collar on this Eastman ain’t mouton I dont know what is. It looks smell and feels identical to several original Navy jackets in my collection.

Yet none of you saw fit to challenge Zu Zu’s statement. I dont mind criticisms on Eastman products. I found it quite interesting to learn my Eastman Monarch A2 should have a blackened zipper. Probably would not have known that if not called out here on this forum. The rest of that jacket, especially the hide is so fine I really don't care much. But I think it is ridiculous when inaccurate statements like the one made earlier in this post go un-challenged just to perpetuate a bias toward a product. Okay I am done, I have said my peace and I continue a deep passion for leather flight jackets, both real and reproduction but I am really just getting more and more frustrated with this forum.

The collar of your M-422A looks really good. No doubt it is mouton. Honestly, it really is a superb jacket.

I'm pretty sure that none of us want to deliberately maintain a bad image of ELC. Historically, ELC is one of the first brands to offer truly precise jackets. Many of us have a special emotional connection with this brand.

Most ELC jackets are just excellent...and I'm the first to say it. But (like any manufacturer) some of their products are not that good...
It is a fact. (the most annoying thing for me is that they don't hesitate to lie when it suits them).

ELC is a high-end manufacturer with high prices. Yes, sorry to bring this up again but it’s a key point. This is undoubtedly justified for many good reasons... We are lenient on the inaccuracies of a $300-$600 jacket. But when we pay $1,500 (or much more) for a jacket, we have the right to expect the best.

IMHO, this is why ELC sometimes causes controversy on the forum.

So OK, some of us (myself included) can sometimes get carried away and be a little clumsy. But let's take a step back, and personally I don't see any gratuitous denigration for ELC.

 

[Pa12]

I’ve owned 4 Elc in the past. All beautiful except my roughwear a-2. I won’t get into that as I’m not sure what was going on there. But I don’t think an Elc/ Goodwear comparison is really fair. Two companies building the same products but completely different businesses. Elc is a top maker and a pretty sizeable outfit. Big enough to have products on the shelf and able to provide for movie productions etc without hurting their customer base. Goodwear is a one man operation. He builds my jacket, then he builds your jacket etc. hence the wait times. He’s basically a custom jacket maker making bespoke jackets. So wouldn’t you expect it to be more accurate? If I waited over a year for a jacket and it turned out identical to one I could have had in a couple weeks I wouldn’t be too happy. As far as price, well I think that’s just the world we’re in . Everything has skyrocketed. I’m sure if they could find a way to keep prices down they would. But they’re not exporting cheap labour like most companies these days. I hope they can continue to operate in the western world and help their own economy. But without exporting labour, the increased expenses are inevitably passed on to the consumers. If they can’t make a profit they’ll disappear like so many companies have.

 

[warguy]

Zu Zu, I appreciate your last post, and think it is a mark of character to admit when you are wrong, and I appreciate that. But I am not letting you off the hook quite that easy. You admit that you saw the B-10 posted in John Levers post and recognized that Eastman indeed does make jackets with mouton collars. That post of John’s and those shots of the B-10 were made well before your statement was made on this post, which simply means you made the statement in this thread knowing full well your statement was not accurate. In order to answer the question that started this thread, why are so many people leaving this forum, I think we need to answer two questions:
1.) Why does Zu Zu make a statement so blatantly inaccurate about Eastman products? What is fueling this motivation? Believe me of course, he is not the only one here making these types of inaccurate un-supported statements about Eastman products. It permeates so many posts on this forum. The answer to this first question actually leads to the second. is it possible that folks here feel comfortable deriding Eastman because the bias is such that they know they wont be challenged? That many forum members really don’t care about the accuracy of the statement, if we are kicking Eastman again, that is just fine with them? Does ZuZu and others have some axe to grind. “By gosh, Gary is making so much money, I am going to get him any way I can”. Or to quote a line from one of my favorite movies, did God forbid Gary kill his firstborn? So once again, the second and far more important question in my opinion is:

2.) Why does the forum let members get away with making these kinds of comments without challenging it? I mean so many very intelligent students on jackets here are counting stitches, exploring the geometry of pockets flaps, the weight and thickness of historically accurate hides, markings on snaps, the correct box on a zipper, but we just simply let statements like this go? Why aren’t these same experts doing a better job of policing this site?

I have been passionate about flight jackets since the Cockpit catalogue days. I am one of the old farts certainly discussed earlier in this thread. I own a dozen or so reproductions, and have currently 13 vintage original flight jackets in my personal collection. I also have a large collection of original wings, flight gear, blood chits, AAF patches, etc. I offer my resume just to simply illustrate that I am not a one day wonder, I have a true passion for flight jackets, original and reproduction and the men (and ladies) who wore them. I have a lot to contribute here, not nearly as much as some but more than others. I have this forum on my browser and usually visit it several times a day, but folks I have realized through this thread and posts here and elsewhere that I am far more frustrated with things than I first realized, and it has been coming on for a while now. To answer the question, why do people leave (any) forum, the answer simply is when a person becomes more frustrated or aggravated than you are entertained , when you simply dont enjoy it as much as you enjoy it, then you will move on.

You all can join arms, beat your chests and say, boy that warguy is too sensitive, needs to get a thicker skin (what a great pun for the VLJ forum eh?). Or you can say, well warguy, you are all wet, this forum is a place for scholars, and criticisms and comments on how historically inaccurate an item (or vendor) might be needs to be allowed, ( I actually agree with that provided the statements are unbiased, fair and most importantly accurate). Or maybe some will say, poor warguy, he hitched his cart to the wrong horse (another great pun!).

The simple truth is, the problems on this forum in my opinion have nothing to do with the one day wonders coming here with their Mall jackets asking for free advice. Treat them respectfully or treat them with disdain, it doesn’t matter much, because when they get the information they seek, they will be gone. That’s not a group that will provide effective recruitment. I certainly don't think changing the forums name will matter much either, but that’s just my opinion I guess.

I have had a lot of response from my post on this thread, many folks agreeing with my assessment that there is a real bias against Eastman here. I am not trying to get everyone to love Eastmans products, and I am not ignorant to the fact there are some issues with authenticity, nd I know their prices are very high, but when I see time and again unsubstantiated criticisms and sometimes just downright inaccurate statements deriding Eastman, I become more and more frustrated. The example provided in this thread isnt just a one off, it happens often.

There are some great people on this forum, a few not so great, but you see that in all forums I guess. Some of the brightest and most giving people in the world reside here and I thank all of you for your support and help in the few years I have been here. I have realized, as you can probably tell from this post that I need a break. I may come back in a few months, maybe a few years, perhaps never. Some wont care I know, my contributions here pale in comparison to many, and my departure will be like removing a finger from a glass of water, barely noticed if at all. I just want to enjoy my jackets, yes the ones that look so similar to my real ones, and I guess reading negative posts about them regularly just inhibits my ability to do that unfettered.

I wish all of you well, and truly hope you all have a very happy and safe Holiday season, free of gifts from Eastman. Perhaps when I return, I will have acquired my first Goodwear jacket, my ticket to your Ball.

If you truly want to answer the question that started this thread, please do some honest self reflection. I wish you all the best. Peace out.

 

[MauldinFan]

I think the "Eastman haters" are reacting to the high prices for products advertised as the gold standard and historically perfect in every way.
I could afford to buy ONE Eastman A2 if I really wanted one but I can't justify the cost to myself.
But the core of all this is "hobby snobbery" where only the extreme high end stuff is worth any attention. Oh, and if you measure the delivery of said jacket in geological timeframes, well, that's even better.
When I saw Headwind A2s being described as 'entry level,' that was all the evidence I ever needed of such snobbery.
Sure, there ARE more accurate A2s being made, but I bet if they were exactly the same as an original in every way, people would still sneer at them for the price. Too many here seem to think you can only brag about that which cost you several mortgage/rent payments and took longer to be delivered as mail in the middle ages.
From this, dog piling on Eastman was inevitable, I think.

 

[FlakMagnet]

"Cool bomber jacket. I think it's neat" -the Normies outside of the forum

 

[Smithy]

I've reached the age or senility where I wear what I like and couldn't give a fig what other people think of it. If I like it, I'll wear it and to hell what others (and especially those on an internet forum) think.

 

[ZuZu]

Zu Zu, I appreciate your last post, and think it is a mark of character to admit when you are wrong, and I appreciate that. But I am not letting you off the hook quite that easy. You admit that you saw the B-10 posted in John Levers post and recognized that Eastman indeed does make jackets with mouton collars. That post of John’s and those shots of the B-10 were made well before your statement was made on this post, which simply means you made the statement in this thread knowing full well your statement was not accurate. In order to answer the question that started this thread, why are so many people leaving this forum, I think we need to answer two questions:
1.) Why does Zu Zu make a statement so blatantly inaccurate about Eastman products? What is fueling this motivation? Believe me of course, he is not the only one here making these types of inaccurate un-supported statements about Eastman products. It permeates so many posts on this forum. The answer to this first question actually leads to the second. is it possible that folks here feel comfortable deriding Eastman because the bias is such that they know they wont be challenged? That many forum members really don’t care about the accuracy of the statement, if we are kicking Eastman again, that is just fine with them? Does ZuZu and others have some axe to grind. “By gosh, Gary is making so much money, I am going to get him any way I can”. Or to quote a line from one of my favorite movies, did God forbid Gary kill his firstborn? So once again, the second and far more important question in my opinion is:

2.) Why does the forum let members get away with making these kinds of comments without challenging it? I mean so many very intelligent students on jackets here are counting stitches, exploring the geometry of pockets flaps, the weight and thickness of historically accurate hides, markings on snaps, the correct box on a zipper, but we just simply let statements like this go? Why aren’t these same experts doing a better job of policing this site?

OK- cut me some slack here Mr. Holmes. I admit there may be A FEW Eastman jackets with real mouton collars but a LARGE portion of Eastman's M422As, B-10s, B-15s and G-1s DO NOT have mouton collars- 70-80-90%! You have the internet- check it out.

For me to say that Eastman doesn't use mouton on it's jackets is not blatantly inaccurate- it's not even an exaggeration. A FEW Eastmans are correct- many are not. This is a jacket forum- we discuss jackets- just because someone says something you don't like doesn't mean they have evil intent. I bought an Eastman directly from Gary in 1989- I have no beef with Gary- just with the inaccurate details of his jackets. He's getting top dollar- they should be right.

What's with the policing fantasy? Just jump right in! Upload pictures showing I'm wrong- respond to the thread. It's a forum! Rebut me!

 

[Pa12]

I've reached the age or senility where I wear what I like and couldn't give a fig what other people think of it. If I like it, I'll wear it and to hell what others (and especially those on an internet forum) think.

Now that attitude will keep you healthy.

 

[ZuZu]

I think the "Eastman haters" are reacting to the high prices for products advertised as the gold standard and historically perfect in every way.
I could afford to buy ONE Eastman A2 if I really wanted one but I can't justify the cost to myself.
But the core of all this is "hobby snobbery" where only the extreme high end stuff is worth any attention. Oh, and if you measure the delivery of said jacket in geological timeframes, well, that's even better.
When I saw Headwind A2s being described as 'entry level,' that was all the evidence I ever needed of such snobbery.
Sure, there ARE more accurate A2s being made, but I bet if they were exactly the same as an original in every way, people would still sneer at them for the price. Too many here seem to think you can only brag about that which cost you several mortgage/rent payments and took longer to be delivered as mail in the middle ages.
From this, dog piling on Eastman was inevitable, I think.

I'm not an Eastman hater- I'm an actual critic. Just the facts ma'aam.

 

[ZuZu]

I've reached the age or senility where I wear what I like and couldn't give a fig what other people think of it. If I like it, I'll wear it and to hell what others (and especially those on an internet forum) think.

Exactly. Again you nutshell it perfectly!

 

[Dumpster D]

 

[Kermit3D]

I think the "Eastman haters" are reacting to the high prices for products advertised as the gold standard and historically perfect in every way.
I could afford to buy ONE Eastman A2 if I really wanted one but I can't justify the cost to myself.
But the core of all this is "hobby snobbery" where only the extreme high end stuff is worth any attention. Oh, and if you measure the delivery of said jacket in geological timeframes, well, that's even better.
When I saw Headwind A2s being described as 'entry level,' that was all the evidence I ever needed of such snobbery.
Sure, there ARE more accurate A2s being made, but I bet if they were exactly the same as an original in every way, people would still sneer at them for the price. Too many here seem to think you can only brag about that which cost you several mortgage/rent payments and took longer to be delivered as mail in the middle ages.
From this, dog piling on Eastman was inevitable, I think.

Are we talking about the same forum ?

At a certain point, some members felt that Fivestar was taking up too much space on the forum. Look at the amount of encouragement and congratulations Shawn gets in the thread dedicated to Fivestar improvements.
More recently, AVI Leather has also been the subject of numerous posts.
Bronson is also very popular.

I sincerely don't think that "reasonably priced" manufacturers are being snubbed... quite the contrary.

I agree that the Headwind A-2 doesn't qualify as an entry-level jacket. In fact, I think it's currently one of the best value for money jackets around. But do I really need to explain why people are somewhat skittish ?

Are you saying that people are snobbish and only interested in very expensive jackets ?
But isn't it precisely the price of ELC jackets that's causing such controversy ?

 

[caddyd]

We all think what if but we're stuck with what is.

 

[B-Man2]

Been around for a while and reading this thread and “War Guys” latest response is so familiar to a number of similar discussions over the years. One guys opinion offends another guys opinion and the stage is set for a departure from the forum. Sad …
I hate to see this as with each departure a wealth of information and experience usually goes with it. “War Guy” had a lot to offer in this hobby. And so does Zu. What I’ve seen a number of times is a level of frustration from those who walk off, that has built up over time. And something is written that causes that final straw to snap. Hopefully in time War Guy will rethink his decision and return.
But here’s the point of my post. And Smithy and others have said it numerous times before me. At the end of the day people were just commenting on pieces of clothing..,. thats what these jackets are . Sometimes used clothing at that. Furthermore … it’s been said many times … this venue first and foremost is an opinion forum . It’s ok if your opinion and my opinion are at odds. It shouldn’t cause either of us any frustration or anger. We just disagree …. No big deal .
Reduce this scenario to its most basic form and you could almost say if I like Vanilla and you like Chocolate am I going to get upset over that? Some of us really need to rethink how we view this hobby. I for one have made a number of acquaintances/ friends on this forum and I don’t want to see any of them or anyone else just walk away …
That’s all … And hey … it’s about that time so let me say Merry Christmas to all of you .
Cheers

 

[leper-colony]

Been around for a while and reading this thread and “War Guys” latest response is so familiar to a number of similar discussions over the years. One guys opinion offends another guys opinion and the stage is set for a departure from the forum. Sad …
I hate to see this as with each departure a wealth of information and experience usually goes with it. “War Guy” had a lot to offer in this hobby. And so does Zu. What I’ve seen a number of times is a level of frustration from those who walk off, that has built up over time. And something is written that causes that final straw to snap. Hopefully in time War Guy will rethink his decision and return.
But here’s the point of my post. And Smithy and others have said it numerous times before me. At the end of the day people were just commenting on pieces of clothing..,. thats what these jackets are . Sometimes used clothing at that. Furthermore … it’s been said many times … this venue first and foremost is an opinion forum . It’s ok if your opinion and my opinion are at odds. It shouldn’t cause either of us any frustration or anger. We just disagree …. No big deal .
Reduce this scenario to its most basic form and you could almost say if I like Vanilla and you like Chocolate am I going to get upset over that? Some of us really need to rethink how we view this hobby. I for one have made a number of acquaintances/ friends on this forum and I don’t want to see any of them or anyone else just walk away …
That’s all … And hey … it’s about that time so let me say Merry Christmas to all of you .
Cheers

I've left twice. Two years, then six.

 

[Pa12]

Maybe not in this case but I’ve seen “squabbles “ start simply because we’re conversing with our fingers. There’s a huge piece of the conversation missing when you’re not face to face. Sometimes in texting/emailing you think you detect overtones real or not. I find myself proof reading my messages thinking , well , I know what I’m trying to say here but I wonder if they will. Much harder to friendly kid and poke then in person.