BK Victory Horse™ Hide

[TOMG1401]

To those it may concern: There IS a definite difference between a member posting pics and comments on a purchase and someone actually CONDUCTING BUSINESS within a thread or anywhere else on this forum on a regular basis. Is that concept to abstract?

 

[leper-colony]

I'm not concerned. Yes. :mrgreen:

 

[Jeff M]

There IS a definite difference between a member posting pics and comments on a purchase and someone actually CONDUCTING BUSINESS within a thread or anywhere else on this forum on a regular basis. Is that concept to abstract?

This has been an issue.
The forum has even changed their posting rules in response to BK's marketing posts.

 

[ButteMT61]

To those it may concern: There IS a definite difference between a member posting pics and comments on a purchase and someone actually CONDUCTING BUSINESS within a thread or anywhere else on this forum on a regular basis. Is that concept to abstract?

Only if you wrestle crocs.

 

[ausreenactor]

To those it may concern: There IS a definite difference between a member posting pics and comments on a purchase and someone actually CONDUCTING BUSINESS within a thread or anywhere else on this forum on a regular basis. Is that concept to abstract?

Only if you wrestle crocs.

No...take another look. Lots here have no issues with the Business here. Everybody here does business. That is what the Buy/Sell section and the Reproduction Manufacturer sections are for. The delineation has been rectified and Platon has acknowledged the intent of the moderators. If the matter is not being addressed take it up with the moderators.....again. Get them to do a poll. Settle it once and for all. There are 30000 members at the Fedora Lounge. No one has hassles with the affiliate thread.

If a customer comes in and is pleased with his purchase and praises the maker in a post or review it is only polite to say 'thank you', 'you're welcome' or 'we do our best'.

I could understand if a hyperlink, pic or irrelevant post was inserted into a thread by Platon. The only thing I have encountered was to the tune of 'you ain't seen nothing yet'.

You guys have your opinons, others think differently. If Steve assumes that I wrestle crocodiles then he is wrong. Potentially for the first time ever. As per the title of this post, a Bill Kelso jacket post mind you, my Werber A-2 in Victory Horse Hide is finished, pics are on the Bill Kelso site. I am wrapped with my jacket and the service.

If anyone was to pop up a recent GW purchase/review I would put money on Platon not saying a word therein. Point taken, get over it and move on. Not too many people care, and a few have posted to that end. Is that concept too abstract?

Nice jibe about the 'Hello Kitty' lining for my Bill Kelso on the Fedora Lounge Steve too. I am sure it wasn't personal. Just the usual. I might do my next Bill Kelso purchase in something exotic as well. As a bonus it would still be the current trend by the time I get it.

 

[ButteMT61]

If anyone was to pop up a recent GW purchase/review I would put money on Platon not saying a word therein. Point taken, get over it and move on. Not too many people care, and a few have posted to that end. Is that concept too abstract?

You'd lose that bet. Problem is, it's not just on the threads but in PM's to other members about said jackets. Mine was one. I had a couple members of the fora (that's both here and there) tell me they got a PM declaring my latest GW a problematic fit and was not good. Now, keep in mind, there were scores of posts to the contrary sans his.
So, feel free to put some money down mate. I'll raise you and call.

-Steve

 

[ausreenactor]

So, feel free to put some money down mate. I'll raise you and call.

-Steve

I did! $1400 to be precise. And set to lay down more. You still toy with Platon about hides for a jacket most here believe you will never purchase.

So now we are taking on Platon for his PMs as well? Got it. Will leave you to your Crusade. Have better things to do. Have my next Bill Kelso jacket to put together.

 

[Anonymous]

You'd lose that bet. Problem is, it's not just on the threads but in PM's to other members about said jackets. Mine was one. I had a couple members of the fora (that's both here and there) tell me they got a PM declaring my latest GW a problematic fit and was not good. Now, keep in mind, there were scores of posts to the contrary sans his.
So, feel free to put some money down mate. I'll raise you and call.

-Steve

I 'd never say a bad word about GW. It's been long established that the man knows how to make jackets. I own a GW and know that first hand (plan to order one more too). But if a jacket does not fit correctly on someone, that is most probably the customer's fault, i.e. probably giving wrong measurements to the maker. Because it is not possible to fit customer A correctly and customer B incorrectly. A maker either makes jackets that fit correctly or not correctly. The only benchmark to check the fit, is to see regular size jackets worn by regular size folks. That shows if the pattern is correct or not. But GW's patterns are copied from WWII jackets and so they are correct. But if you are tall, short, with long arms, short torso, have a tummy and on top of that give also wrong measurements to the maker, how do you expect the jacket to fit correctly?

Bottom line, if the maker made 100 jackets out of which 90 fit correctly and 10 don't I don't think we should blame the maker. The maker used the same patterns in all cases.

At BK, we get a lot of, e.g. "add 1.5inch to the shoulders, take in the 0.75inch the chest, make the upper sleeve narrower by 2 inch, add 1.5inch at the back etc" and a gazillion of requests that leave nothing of the original pattern intact. How do you expect that to fit correctly if you don't know for sure that what you 're asking for is gonna fit correctly?

Then if one posts a photo of his jacket and people like it they 're gonna say it fits good, others may have different opinion that it's not a good fit?. Who is right then? My opinion, when you go to make a custom suit at the tailors, during the fitting, you don't ask your wife if the jacket fits OK (you can if you want to be polite) but you ask the tailor. He's the expert. In the case of buying leather jackets via the internet, you can't have a fitting, so you can only try on the jacket after you have bought it. In that case, if you have doubts about the fit, ask the maker, show him your pics. A maker of GW's class will tell you the truth about if the jacket fits correctly. If you don't want to do this, you can ask the forum members who will tell you that it fits OK and it will be OK if you are happy with that answer (but don't blame those who will say it doesn't fit right).

Over at the Indy fans forum, Indy jacket maker Wested has become rich because no one has bought less than 2 jackets. They buy the first, and if the fit doesn't work, they amend the measurements until they nail it. Sometimes they do sometimes they never get it right. I bought 5 Westeds this way (now sold them all except 1). Now of course, the price of a GW, ELC etc is much higher that a Wested so one can't afford to make mistakes. If you like the fit, you should not care what others say.

To Couchy: Thanks for your independent voice and support, much appreciated. But I am trying to quit writing all these things here and you don't help me by giving them more reasons to shout about. Let's let the jackets do the talking as they asked. I am sure the jacket got a lot to say. So from now on, only photos.

If anyone was to pop up a recent GW purchase/review I would put money on Platon not saying a word therein. Point taken, get over it and move on. Not too many people care, and a few have posted to that end. Is that concept too abstract?

Scott you 'll lose and then you 'll have to buy more than 1 jackets. Though I trust the gentlemen here will not provoke me.

 

[Anonymous]

In fact as far as I'm concerned I don't really understand why we have a repro section and repro manufacturers.

Stanier that's easy. In the Reproduction manufacturers section, only repro makers have the right to start threads and the subject of those threads should be the introduction of new products. Members can ask questions that the maker will reply.

In the repro section everybody can post about matters having to do with repros. The instruction is "Discuss the advantages/disadvantages to reproduction WWII jackets, the different makers, styles, and materials-feel free to post pictures, and comments"

Now the reviews of the jackets purchased should go to the Reviews section.

It's perfectly clear but, members don't exactly follow these simple rules, (they ignore them? don't understand them? can't read? I don't know) and post reviews in the Reproduction manufacturers section and in the Repros section.
The moderators tolerate it and I am OK with that.
I try not to post anything BK outside the Reproduction manufacturers section, because previously I had taken over the Repros section and I didn't like that very much.

 

[Vcruiser]

You didn't 'like that very much'..? Many members here didn't either. You should see my PMs of encouragement (similar to what Couchy has said)...and also like Couchy would say 'If it wasn't for cred..I would reveal who..and I would even add the content of BK PMs and offerings to me as well for all to digest.
'It seems this issue is settled'...except that you will still continue to BK school us anywhere possible...and inform us how customers reviews now matter little..even after you had begged for them with bewilderment as to why they weren't appearing. As if (like we already know) the reviews and photos are most important.
Now Members are 'warned' about even reviewing BK jackets here. A non issue disguised as making things somehow more better for everyone...or most likely just distracting away from what the real issue has been with BK management across the forum from the beginning. The few who think this is all so frivolous even declare 'Go ahead and post where ever you want to post'! Fed up with the argument..or what has been added to the argument to make it more than what it really is. It's not about liking or disliking BK or their jackets..it's about the tactics that BK is willing to use even after problems were revealed and settled...and a now few members intent on expressing that 'anything should go' on the VLJ since in their mind there never has been any problem.
Van

 

[Anonymous]

Van? Will you put it to rest? Everyone else is entitled to an opinion except me? Because I work with a repro maker? What discrimination is this?

And why all this time you take my opinion as being the vendor's "business tactics"?. Disconnect that from your brain. My opinion is independent and I do not express BK's opinion in everything I say around here. There have been times that I acted as messenger of BK's messages and announcements but when this happens I state something like "this came officially from BK.

So quit it man, I can school anybody I like, same way as you can and you are. In your posts you warn people to avoid BK either expressly or implied. And you mock us all the time. The guys here are not 10 years old, no matter how much we/you school them, they have the brains to decide themselves. Leave alone that the content of my schoolings was 100% the truth about BK's excellent products.

Finally, good construction jackets differ from good fitting jackets. I never said don't trust the reviews, I said use your brain. Jeff seems to have been mislead by a review. I said reviews are not panacea. Do you know this word "panacea"? It's Greek.

You didn't 'like that very much'..?

Yes, I didn't like that I had to do it and I didn't like that many members didn't. I said I understand that many times. I also said that I would diminish my posts and I have. If you still don't like it, then don't read here.

...and inform us how customers reviews now matter little..even after you had begged for them with bewilderment as to why they weren't appearing.

Where do you get this crap man? We don't just beg them. We offer them money. BK offers discount to their forum customers to write reviews and you know what? Nobody's taking it. People prefer to pay more than to have to write a review :lol: . Some TFL member also got the discount but never wrote a review. he scammed us. He ordered his BK after several attempts with Aero failed to please him and when received it wrote us that the BK is better than Aero.

Regarding the jackets, the jackets kick ass. A number of people who don't practice cheap talk said so.
If you buy one and you don't like it you get full refund. Plain and simple. That's BK business tactics. BK guarantees they are excellent. That's business tactics. So if one is wondering if the jackets are good or not, all he has to do is get one and try. It's not rocket science.

I don't care to continue this argument, let it go please, I asked not to be provoked.

If you want to buy a jacket you know where to find me. You will be so pleased with it that you will never wear another jacket. The arguments will be forgotten and we'll be best friends. I 'd like that to happen. I like happy endings. Do you?

 

[Vcruiser]

Nice post Platon.
Very revealing...

 

[Anonymous]

One last thing.

When GW started making jackets with grainy leathers, EVERYBODY said they were better than other makers', the best. The healthy response of ELC to that was to upgrade their leathers by sourcing the Warhorse(TM).

If I start claiming that BK makes the best jackets then, if it can be proven, shouldn't the other makers' reaction be to follow ELC's example and improve their product? Of course, it would be easier and cheaper for them to shut me down. I think complaining all the time about me posting about BK lends support to the latter strategy.

The fact that other makers e.g. Aero sell more jackets than BK does not prove that Aero jackets are better. There are other factors, brand recognition, long history, longer presence in the market, marketing tactics etc etc. For example, Alexander jackets are made by the same people who made Aero previously with the same leathers that Aero uses, yet some people think that one is better than the other etc. Or, if hypothetically Aero bought BK company, immediately BK's jackets would be considered better? I wonder.

I am done.

 

[Persimmon]

Where do you get this crap man? We don't just beg them. We offer them money. BK offers discount to their forum customers to write reviews and you know what? Nobody's taking it. People prefer to pay more than to have to write a review . Some TFL member also got the discount but never wrote a review. he scammed us. He ordered his BK after several attempts with Aero failed to please him and when received it wrote us that the BK is better than Aero.


Have I missed out ?
I was not begged to write a review or indeed requested at all by anyone at BK

I wrote a review of my latest purchase - a2 aero by BK because I was so happy to receive and wear the jacket.

Still I was not aware I could have been paid to do so.

Looks like I missed out !!

 

[foster]

My experience is it is usually not advisable to have discounted pricing incentives for the purpose of obtaining reviews. It can be perceived as bribery, as the writer of the review has some bias due to favorable treatment by the manufacturer. Discounted pricing often makes people happier with the product. It's classic marketing basics. Knock down the price, make the buyer happy and then ask them to write a review... you're compromised the objectivity needed for an honest review. Yes, there is always some bias once people part with money for a product, but alter that equation and the bias becomes skewed even further.

I've written reviews, mostly for another website. I've always paid the basic price rate that applied to everyone else who bought the same item at the same time. To do otherwise would unfairly influence my commentary on the item.

The only real way to objectively have a review is to have it done by a third party not involved in the production or purchase of the item.

 

[Jeff M]

My experience is it is usually not advisable to have discounted pricing incentives for the purpose of obtaining reviews. It can be perceived as bribery, as the writer of the review has some bias due to favorable treatment by the manufacturer. Discounted pricing often makes people happier with the product. It's classic marketing basics. Knock down the price, make the buyer happy and then ask them to write a review... you're compromised the objectivity needed for an honest review. Yes, there is always some bias once people part with money for a product, but alter that equation and the bias becomes skewed even further.

I've written reviews, mostly for another website. I've always paid the basic price rate that applied to everyone else who bought the same item at the same time. To do otherwise would unfairly influence my commentary on the item.

The only real way to objectively have a review is to have it done by a third party not involved in the production or purchase of the item.

Yes.

 

[Anonymous]

We want honest reviews. BK don't pay money for the review. BK compensate for the trouble of writing the review. Just a small incentive to write the review. It is explicitly said "provided you like the jacket we would like you to write a review". I don't think that the "small incentive" is strong enough to influence someone to write positive.

A forged review sucks. We want to show the truth here. That's all I 've been yelling since the start.
We want objective reviews.

BK offered jackets to Acmedepot to review them. He rejected because he is not into A-2 anymore.
An independent magazine wants to make a review, but BK thinks that if customers see review in a magazine will wonder "how independent" it is. That's why haven't done it.

I've written reviews, mostly for another website. I've always paid the basic price rate that applied to everyone else who bought the same item at the same time. To do otherwise would unfairly influence my commentary on the item.

For which website? If you are afraid that the discount would unfairly influence your commentary then we could send a jacket on loan to review and you can return it back after reviewing it. No gain for you, no unfair influence. We can send one to Van if he likes.

 

[foster]

This one:
http://www.90thidpg.us/Equipment/Reviews/index.html

I write reviews usually for items I own originals which I can compare with the replica. I have no objection to writing an objective review, but it is helpful if I have an original to compare (I do not have original A2 jackets in my collection). I am more qualified to write reviews on cloth jackets as my background is in textiles. I can look at leather jackets and take note of the lining, knits, and stitching in detail, but I am not informed on the leather hides.

 

[Anonymous]

I forgot to say that over at the Indy fan forum we have a thread full of reviews and photos from customers.
That thread has 577 replies and 15360 views.
The Indyfans are also very strongly attached to their favorite Indy jacket makers, Wested, G&B, US Wings, Todd, TN but they are not biased against BK. They immediately recognized the quality of BK Indy jacket and loved it. Not a bad word, not even from the most hardcore fans of other brands. Seemed impossible but they also voted it best Indy jacket ever in a poll they had. And don't get me started on how difficult is to make the Indy repro to look screen accurate.

The negativity experienced here and on TFL is unprecedented. And BK is using the same "business tactics" Van refers to on that forum as well. Less vigorous though because those guys over there are more open minded and receptive.

 

[Jeff M]

I've seen many different jackets reviewed here made by many different manufacturers. None has generated anywhere near the controversy that BK does. Why?

BK's heavy marketing of new designs, the heavy daily input of comments on others threads about their own jackets, comments on other makers jackets are all behaviors different from what other jacket makers who visit these forums do.

There is both "good" and "bad" with the marketing path BK has chosen. They get the word out about their products, but at the cost of pissing off those who don't want to see the forums turning into another site flooded with manufacturer marketing, whose expectations based on that marketing are not met, who wonder about how "unbiased" reviews are vis a vis "discounts".
It's inevitable. You could start with a whole new forum membership, and over time, the situation would end up the same. Complaining about it is like complaining about how driving a convertible in a rain storm gets the interior of the car wet.