Why so few American makers?

[ZuZu]

I've talked about this here before.

If we're honest there's a strong argument that WWII German used flying jackets (so those including the French cycling jackets) are aesthetically better looking and more flattering to the wearer than the A-2.

The A-2 isn't a terribly flattering jacket because in its correct form it should be "blouson" and puff out over the midriff making the wearing appear slightly pear-shaped. That's the nature of the design and not something you'll see with a Luftwaffe used flying jacket, be it civilian or issue.

My wife absolutely HATES A-2s for that reason. She said to me (after I tried on Luftwaffe used jacket), "those Yank jackets make you look fat but that German jacket makes you look good."

Put an A-2 next to most German WWII flying jackets and it's like putting a hippo next to a leopard.

Here I respectfully disagree with you. The German/French bicycle jackets look great on a fit person- that's it. As worn during the historical period they even more than American dress emphasized a tiny little upper body with big balloony pantaloon looking botttoms. The A-2 is a comfortable jacket and it looks so. It looks square yet relaxed- ti's IMO a triumph of design- hence it endurance as an icon. The German/French bicycle jacket look has resurfaced a few times (the 70)s for instance) but an A-2 has always looked cool. That being said- after looking at photos for researching this post those Luftwaffe pilots were the epitome of cool.

 

[Chandler]

Based on all of the pics of Luftwaffe pilots I've seen with "procured" A-2s, it must be a pretty cool jacket.

 

[Smithy]

Here I respectfully disagree with you. The German/French bicycle jackets look great on a fit person- that's it. As worn during the historical period they even more than American dress emphasized a tiny little upper body with big balloony pantaloon looking botttoms. The A-2 is a comfortable jacket and it looks so. It looks square yet relaxed- ti's IMO a triumph of design- hence it endurance as an icon. The German/French bicycle jacket look has resurfaced a few times (the 7)s for instance) but an A-2 has always looked cool.

Nope sorry Jeff you are completely wrong.

The love for the A-2 comes from the history of it. If it didn't have that it wouldn't have anything. It's a shit design.

It's not terribly comfortable (and especially compared to anything with a bi-swing back) and it's certainly not terribly flattering.

The A-2 will make anyone look fatter because of the design of the bottom half and the knit bottom.

I like it for the history but it's not a very flattering jacket and especially if you are in shape. That might be why iterations of it have been popular with old folks over the years.

Based on all of the pics of Luftwaffe pilots I've seen with "procured" A-2s, it must be a pretty cool jacket.

For all the photos of LW pilots wearing A-2 (of which they must number under 20) I think they were wearing them for comfort rather than aesthetics.

Much like the guys in the USAAF did.

 

[mulceber]

I'm with Jeff on this one. And for the record, I actually think A-2s are more comfortable to wear than a G-1. The sleeves riding up a bit when I lift my arms wearing an A-2 doesn't bother me, but having the whole torso ride up when I sit down in a G-1 sure as hell does. The A-2 is a simple design, not a shitty one, and the simplicity is part of the beauty.

 

[Smithy]

I'm with Jeff on this one. And for the record, I actually think A-2s are more comfortable to wear than a G-1. The sleeves riding up a bit when I lift my arms wearing an A-2 doesn't bother me, but having the whole torso ride up when I sit down in a G-1 sure as hell does. The A-2 is a simple design, not a shitty one, and the simplicity is part of the beauty.

Jan, I like wearing my A-2s despite what the better half says. But she has a point that the nature of the design increases the perception of the wearer's midriff due to the blouson design.

The A-2 due to the simple fact it sits at waist length with a knit waist does make the width looks larger on the waist. It's the nature of the design. The lower area of the waist jacket is meant to "muffin top" slightly over the knit waist.

I like my A-2s but I'm adult enough to realise that it's not the most the flattering jacket design compared to others.

You won't see a LW flying jacket civvy or issued doing the muffin top thing over the wearer's waist.

 

[ZuZu]

Nope sorry Jeff you are completely wrong.

The love for the A-2 comes from the history of it. If it didn't have that it wouldn't have anything. It's a shit design.

It's not terribly comfortable (and especially compared to anything with a bi-swing back) and it's certainly not terribly flattering.

The A-2 will make anyone look fatter because of the design of the bottom half and the knit bottom.

I like it for the history but it's not a very flattering jacket and especially if you are in shape. That might be why iterations of it have been popular with old folks over the years.



For all the photos of LW pilots wearing A-2 (of which they must number under 20) I think they were wearing them for comfort rather than aesthetics.

Much like the guys in the USAAF did.

I agree with you about the pouchiness of the design- I like that though. Designwise you there is an element of truth to what you say- in Hollywood films main actors sometimes even wear redesigned A-2s which are shorter and have squarer shoulders than "real" A-2s. John Wayne, Gregory Peck etc.

Personally however I've let go of much of the history stuff surrounding the jacket- I love them mostly intrinsically for their weird perfection and specificity. They had a COOL look- they're not uptight but rather leisurely and casual. German pilots look cool because of the perfect brutal masculinity of their look- they look scary.

The history of both looks is really sad and horrible- fun in the movies only.

 

[mulceber]

Jan, I like wearing my A-2s despite what the better half says. But she has a point that the nature of the design increases the perception of the wearer's midriff due to the blouson design.

The A-2 due to the simple fact it sits at waist length with a knit waist does make the width looks larger on the waist. It's the nature of the design. The lower area of the waist jacket is meant to "muffin top" slightly over the knit waist.

I like my A-2s but I'm adult enough to realise that it's not the most the flattering jacket design compared to others.

You won't see a LW flying jacket civvy or issued doing the muffin top thing over the wearer's waist.

Aesthetics are subjective. You think the French Cyclist jackets look better and that's perfectly fine, but it's subjective. I genuinely think the bagginess of the A-2 makes it look cool. By contrast, I don't own an FC jacket and likely never will. The look doesn't do anything for me. That is also subjective.

 

[ZuZu]

Aesthetics are subjective. You think the French Cyclist jackets look better and that's perfectly fine, but it's subjective. I genuinely think the bagginess of the A-2 makes it look cool. By contrast, I don't own an FC jacket and likely never will. The look doesn't do anything for me. That is also subjective.

HaHaHa! One COULD argue that the VLJ "WW2 fit" is actually a sideways attempt to put some of the French cyclist look on to A-2s...

 

[Smithy]

I agree with you about the pouchiness of the design- I like that though. Designwise you there is an element of truth to what you say- in Hollywood films main actors sometimes even wear redesigned A-2s which are shorter and have squarer shoulders than "real" A-2s. John Wayne, Gregory Peck etc.

Personally however I've let go of much of the history stuff surrounding the jacket- I love them mostly intrinsically for their weird perfection and specificity. They had a COOL look- they're not uptight but rather leisurely and casual. German pilots look cool because of the perfect brutal masculinity of their look- they look scary.

The history of both looks is really sad and horrible- fun in the movies only.

View attachment 116881

View attachment 116883

Love the photos Jeff!

And whilst I like WWII flying jackets as I've already mentioned I think WWI airmen looked a million times cooler than any WWII flyboy.

Aesthetics are subjective. You think the French Cyclist jackets look better and that's perfectly fine, but it's subjective. I genuinely think the bagginess of the A-2 makes it look cool. By contrast, I don't own an FC jacket and likely never will. The look doesn't do anything for me. That is also subjective.

I don't mind the baggyness of A-2s either but it's obvious Jan that it does impact the appearance for people other than us flying jacket enthusiasts.

It's the thing my better half has always hated about A-2s. She's always said how they accentuate the look that your waist is bigger and flabbier compared to the rest of your figure.

Just my opinion but I don't think it's too hard to argue that the jackets worn in the LW were more flattering (aesthetically) than those in the Allied air forces.

 

[leper-colony]

HaHaHa! One COULD argue that the VLJ "WW2 fit" is actually a sideways attempt to put some of the French cyclist look on to A-2s...

Truth.

 

[Marc mndt]

My Jacket that landed in April, return address same as sent.

View attachment 116879

Ah that's reassuring. Platon Chaldeos of Mutual Maritime services, a daughter company of a Korean shipbroker company.

Mutual Maritime Services S.A. - www.mutualmaritime.gr

mutualmaritime.gr

 

[ZuZu]

Ah that's reassuring. Platon Chaldeos of Mutual Maritime services, a daughter company of a Korean shipbroker company.

Mutual Maritime Services S.A. - www.mutualmaritime.gr

mutualmaritime.gr

You're all caught up in Greek business! Fun to watch! You will never figure it out. You're not Greek.

 

[dinomartino1]

Ah that's reassuring. Platon Chaldeos of Mutual Maritime services, a daughter company of a Korean shipbroker company.

Mutual Maritime Services S.A. - www.mutualmaritime.gr

mutualmaritime.gr

Well enlighten us all, where is kelso located.

 

[flyincowboy]

I've discussed this many times with Theodoros from Thedi leathers.

I think it's fair to assume that Theodoros (who's actually from Greece and has been in the leather jacket business since the late 70s ) knows who is who at least in Greece but most likely also in larger parts of Europe as he sources his leather from various European tanneries.

As you can imagine Theodoros was curious to know about Bill Kelso since they claim to produce their jackets in Greece. So he contacted them, asking them for an address of their workshop or at least the name of someone from their workshop who speaks Greek. There was no one to talk to and no address was given.

Theodoros has been in the business since '79 and he never heard of any other manufacturer of (high end) leather jackets that operates within his small country. BK producing jackets in Greece is a myth.

That BK'S flagship leather (Victoria horsehide?) is produced in the EU doesn't mean anything. Aero's flagship leather (Horween) is produced in Chicago IL but I'm certain their jackets are produced in Galashiels

If I buy a Schott Perfecto here in Europe it will be shipped from France. That doesn't mean the jacket was made in France.

Most of the Schott leather as well as Mac Douglas leather Chappal and some others came from french tanneries Most of the jackets are localy made in FRANCE in jacket factories The sheepskin for my last B3 was sourced that way and localy made.

 

[mulceber]

Going back to the original question, I do think @TrainDriver is onto something interesting: if you look at the all the repro makers out there, the U.S.-based makers are overwhelmingly one-man operations like Good Wear, while the ones outside of the U.S. are larger-scale businesses with employees specializing in different things. I wonder why that is.

 

[ZuZu]

Going back to the original question, I do think @TrainDriver is onto something interesting: if you look at the all the repro makers out there, the U.S.-based makers are overwhelmingly one-man operations like Good Wear, while the ones outside of the U.S. are larger-scale businesses with employees specializing in different things. I wonder why that is.

The American repro market started off being at least an attempt to make the old WW2 jackets as they were- Avirex did its best at first, and Goodson and Willis and Geiger and Lost Worlds. But then the inevitable US business model involving marketing and novelty and planned obselesence devolved those companies (except LW, Flight Suits and US Authentic which were frozen in 1996 and have changed not a whit) into pure bullshit crap products- Escape Map Underwear and the G-8 Navy Jacket and the cloth A-2 (based on a Real Example!) etc. etc. culminating in the AF Issue A-2 of the 1980s. Gaudy bullshit and really stupid customers.

Really discerning people had to go to England and Japan where an earnest attempt was made to replicate and honor the past.

Fast forward to the early 2000s- John Chapman and Good Wear- the Authentic WW2 Jacket Revolution...

 

[ZuZu]

Going back to the original question, I do think @TrainDriver is onto something interesting: if you look at the all the repro makers out there, the U.S.-based makers are overwhelmingly one-man operations like Good Wear, while the ones outside of the U.S. are larger-scale businesses with employees specializing in different things. I wonder why that is.

I guess that's true because FlightSuits and US Authentic aren't really repro makers. LW isn't either IMO- they make fantasy Dubows. Ken and Gary set up solid businesses with quality repros- nothing here in the US equivalent 'til GW. And John's TOO concerned with exactitude and perfection to get bigger- he can't use the British model. I don't know much about the other guys-Norshor, Sheeley and Sellers (and Diamond Dave) but I think they use the GW model as you say.

 

[Marc mndt]

Most of the Schott leather as well as Mac Douglas leather Chappal and some others came from french tanneries Most of the jackets are localy made in FRANCE in jacket factories The sheepskin for my last B3 was sourced that way and localy made.

I've never seen a Schott Perfecto with a made in France label. Your Schott B3 has a made in France label?

 

[flyincowboy]

I've never seen a Schott Perfecto with a made in France label. Your Schott B3 has a made in France label?

Nope never seen a schott with a made in France tag My B3 is copied from an original jacket who fell apart made with localy tanned leather which are sold for such brands as Schott mc douglas etc etc Jackets are made most of the time in FRANCE under contract in

factories..

 

[John Lever]

There aren't any in the true sense, not 'factories' at any rate.
JC and the other similar manufacturers are cottage industries producing bespoke highly accurate products. They don't or shouldn't try to compete with the big boys like RM and ELC.
Two very different markets and customer bases.
IMO of course.