Why so few American makers?

[Smithy]

Yes the premise in the OP is not correct. The A2 was an American style, but brown leather jackets were worn all over long before that became a standard. WW1 flight jackets were brown, British pre war short leather sporting jackets were brown, as were the French cycling jackets that the German pilots bought to use as flying jackets in WW11 when they occupied France.

In fact black leather jackets were fairly uncommon before the beginning of fifties and most civilian leather coats and jackets until then were brown. Brown leather jackets were pretty fashionable in the UK and continental Europe and worldwide pre war, and many men and women wore them. They were by no means purely an American style.

One thing I'd just correct here South is that not all WWI flying coats were brown.

Although brown was stipulated in regulations, the majority of RNAS airmen wore black leather flying coats and usually double breasted (and not the single breasted flapover designs seen in the RFC with issue and private purchase coats) like their naval uniforms. Also during WWI it was far more common for flying coats used by the Central Powers to be black.

 

[John Lever]

Well, thank you for the info.
We never stop learning, I guess!

Or Canadian...

 

[Marc mndt]

in the face of the much greater body of evidence for them being located in Greece.

The evidence being Andy saying so and Andy posting patriotic quotes in ancient Greek

 

[mulceber]

The evidence being Andy saying so and Andy posting patriotic quotes in ancient Greek

And having jackets both shipped to and from the Piraeus. For what you're suggesting to be true, he'd have to be exporting Italian HH to a third country, thus incurring importation fees that, in developing countries are frequently VERY steep, then he'd have to be re-importing the finished product into the EU, thus incurring even more import duties. Then, when a customer like me decided they needed to return a jacket for repairs, he'd need to have me ship the jacket to the EU, only to turn around and have it shipped to the third country, have it repaired there, then ship it back to the Piraeus, and then ship it back to me.

And you claim they're doing this so they can claim to be made in Greece of all places? I don't want to insult Greece, but if you're going to lie about the location of your leather garment company, Greece isn't especially advantageous. A lot of Europeans treat it like basically a third-world country inside of Europe and it's not especially famous for leather, so the country of origin won't be a selling point in the way that, for example, Italy would be. It's an awful lot of work to go to in order to maintain this facade, and the facade isn't an especially advantageous one.

 

[leper-colony]

 

[Smithy]

I don't have a dog in this fight but have been around since BK arrived on the scene.

BK copped a lot of flak for being the new kid on the block and usurping some of the older makers in terms of details and for a competitive price. There was a lot of badmouthing them from ELC and Aero fans especially when BK first started. I even heard some people try and say that BK jackets were made in Asia.

Just my opinion but I don't reckon that's right. You can't replicate A-2 contracts to the level of detail that BK offer if you're subcontracting out to another crowd for construction. You can see that with AVI.

BK jackets are seriously high end repros. That kind of attention to detail with wartime repros is usually seen only in Europe and the US with very specialised makers.

I might be wrong but I think it's more than highly likely that BK jackets are made in Europe.

 

[CombatWombat]

One thing I'd just correct here South is that not all WWI flying coats were brown.

Although brown was stipulated in regulations, the majority of RNAS airmen wore black leather flying coats and usually double breasted (and not the single breasted flapover designs seen in the RFC with issue and private purchase coats) like their naval uniforms. Also during WWI it was far more common for flying coats used by the Central Powers to be black.

I'll back you on the Fleet Airarm coats......I saw one in the old "Great War" section of the AWM in Canberra that was basically a "frock coat"/reefer coat made from black leather with the brass RAN anchor buttons and a observer wing on the front

 

[Marc mndt]

For what you're suggesting to be true, he'd have to be exporting Italian HH to a third country, thus incurring importation fees that, in developing countries are frequently VERY steep, then he'd have to be re-importing the finished product into the EU, thus incurring even more import duties.

That's common practice in the world of leather jacket making. Aero Leathers imports Horween horsehide into the UK. They make a jacket out of it and then export it to the US. Similarly they import Victoria Horsehide or Badalassi cow from Italy. I as a European customer would have to pay import fees if I buy an Aero, no matter where its leather came from.

And you claim they're doing this so they can claim to be made in Greece of all places?

and the facade isn't an especially advantageous one.

I can think of an advantage. 5* jackets are cheap because they're made in a low wages country. Consequently we as customers are not willing to pay big money for a made in Pakistan jacket.

But what if we were told that the jacket was made in a first world country. We'd accept a higher price point

A lot of Europeans treat it like basically a third-world country inside of Europe and it's not especially famous for leather

Lol.

 

[Smithy]

I'll back you on the Fleet Airarm coats......I saw one in the old "Great War" section of the AWM in Canberra that was basically a "frock coat"/reefer coat made from black leather with the brass RAN anchor buttons and a observer wing on the front

WWI is one of my big things Wombat and I have hundreds of period photos of black leather flying coats both RNAS and Central Power ones. I've also seen a few originals.

In terms of the RNAS, the vast majority of flying coats worn by aircrew in the service were black - it was a defining feature of the service to the point where you can identify someone from the British Air Forces as being RNAS from their flying coat even if nothing else is identifiable.

 

[John Lever]

Andy told me that the duties for materials into Europe are very high

 

[mulceber]

That's common practice in the world of leather jacket making. Aero Leathers imports Horween horsehide into the UK. They make a jacket out of it and then export it to the US. Similarly they import Victoria Horsehide or Badalassi cow from Italy. I as a European customer would have to pay import fees if I buy an Aero, no matter where its leather came from.

The difference is that, in the case of Aero, they're paying 1 import fee for materials, whereas in the case of BK it would be 2 import fees: 1 for getting the materials to the factory, 1 for getting the finished product into Greece so it could be shipped out. And that's totally ignoring my experience with getting repairs.

I can think of an advantage. 5* jackets are cheap because they're made in a low wages country. Consequently we as customers are not willing to pay big money for a made in Pakistan jacket.

But what if we were told that the jacket was made in a first world country. We'd accept a higher price point

Then, as I said before, why not go all the way and claim they're made in Italy in order to capitalize on that country's reputation for leather goods? People would likely accept even higher prices.

Look, at this point we're just arguing past each other. You think it's an elaborate conspiracy to make customers believe their jackets are made in Greece. I think that's tinfoil hat stuff. It's much more credible that an off-putting interaction with a competitor was just an off-putting interaction with a competitor. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

[Enigma1938]

The WW2 American airman just had the coolest stuff, the coolest look...

Cool indeed, but german WW2 Airmen looked pretty cool also in their own way, they looked "schneidig" in german words...

 

[Capt]

My Jacket that landed in April, return address same as sent.

 

[Smithy]

The WW2 American airman just had the coolest stuff, the coolest look.

Cool indeed, but german WW2 Airmen looked pretty cool also in their own way, they looked "schneidig" in german words...

I'm biased but I've always thought WWI airmen look a damn sight cooler than WWII aircrew, American, British or otherwise.

No parachutes, no prissy little short-cut A-2 jackets, no dangling oxygen masks and all the rest of the nonsense, rather these men wore heavy chrome tanned flying coats in open cockpits with a flying helmet, high riding boots or sheepskin-lined high length boots and little else.

You want cool, look at those guys, they invented it.

 

[Pilot]

I'm biased but I've always thought WWI airmen look a damn sight cooler than WWII aircrew, American, British or otherwise.

No parachutes, no prissy little short-cut A-2 jackets, no dangling oxygen masks and all the rest of the nonsense, rather these men wore heavy chrome tanned flying coats in open cockpits with a flying helmet, high riding boots or sheepskin-lined high length boots and little else.

You want cool, look at those guys, they invented it.

Agree!
No guts no glory!

 

[ZuZu]

Cool indeed, but german WW2 Airmen looked pretty cool also in their own way, they looked "schneidig" in german words...

Yes- and if they'd won the war I'm sure the story would be different even as far as what cool clothes are. German stuff is (I'd argue) as cool and well designed as American but there is such a burden of history even in this sphere that it can never be overtly "cool".

 

[Pilot]

Yes- and if they'd won the war I'm sure the story would be different even as far as what cool clothes are. German stuf is (I'd argue) as cool and well designed as American but there is such a burden of history even in this sphere that it can never be overtly "cool".

…And…if „elite“… and original… no comparable US ( allied ) item or piece will ever fetch those prices…Thankyou…

 

[ZuZu]

There's 0 evidence that BK jackets are actually produced in Greece.

Wow- it is hilarious to watch people on the forum argue about Greek stuff. They (BK) are definitely Greek- and what you are witnessing in this thread is the result of "Greek business". Being married to a Greek I've witnessed a lot of this- a combination of ancient grievance, a total unwillingness to show your hand and an idea of omerta ingrained at birth. Of course another Greek tailor will never have heard of Bill Kelso. Of course the origins and actual current conditions will be a total mystery. Of course there will be a lot of arguing! Greek business!

 

[ZuZu]

That's common practice in the world of leather jacket making. Aero Leathers imports Horween horsehide into the UK. They make a jacket out of it and then export it to the US. Similarly they import Victoria Horsehide or Badalassi cow from Italy. I as a European customer would have to pay import fees if I buy an Aero, no matter where its leather came from.






I can think of an advantage. 5* jackets are cheap because they're made in a low wages country. Consequently we as customers are not willing to pay big money for a made in Pakistan jacket.

But what if we were told that the jacket was made in a first world country. We'd accept a higher price point


Lol.

The other thing that's very Greek about all of this is the underlying striving for perfection which is evident especially in the Platon/Dubow jackets but also in BK. There might be a lot of contingent grabass but look at the result. Like the 2004 Olympics- great! Greece and Greeks are an amazing people- I find it funny that other Europeans would look down on them.

 

[Smithy]

Yes- and if they'd won the war I'm sure the story would be different even as far as what cool clothes are. German stuf is (I'd argue) as cool and well designed as American but there is such a burden of history even in this sphere that it can never be overtly "cool".

I've talked about this here before.

If we're honest there's a strong argument that WWII German used flying jackets (so those including the French cycling jackets) are aesthetically better looking and more flattering to the wearer than the A-2.

The A-2 isn't a terribly flattering jacket because in its correct form it should be "blouson" and puff out over the midriff making the wearing appear slightly pear-shaped. That's the nature of the design and not something you'll see with a Luftwaffe used flying jacket, be it civilian or issue.

My wife absolutely HATES A-2s for that reason. She said to me (after I tried on Luftwaffe used jacket), "those Yank jackets make you look fat but that German jacket makes you look good."

Put an A-2 next to most German WWII flying jackets and it's like putting a hippo next to a leopard.