What is the limit on the price of a repro ?

[Superfluous]

Many people rate McCoy's highly without ever having seen one in person.

Respectfully, this is a silly statement; particularly coming from the rep of a RMC competitor. Please share your empirical data demonstrating that "[m]any people rate McCoy's highly without ever having seen one in person." Everyone I know who exalts RMC does so based on firsthand experience with their products. Moreover, your contrary suggestion, without the slightest bit of supporting evidence, diminishes your and BK's credibility.

I own two RMC leather jackets, and I have seen others in person. Thus, I can say with firsthand knowledge that RMC's quality is outstanding. Note, I did not say RMC's quality is better than GW, ELC or BK. Rather, RMC is outstanding in and of itself, without detracting from the quality of other manufacturers.

You are doing a disservice to BK when you make unsubstantiated statements about competitors.

McCoy's have built a reputation but just because they 're the most expensive.

Respectfully, this is yet another silly statement. Please share your empirical data demonstrating that RMC's reputation is derived from the cost of its products, rather than the quality of its products. I know several people who consider RMC's products to be outstanding and among the best available -- not one of these people formed that opinion based on the cost of the product. Rather, they formed that opinion based on the quality of RMC's products. Likewise, other RMC competitors -- e.g., GW and Himel -- have tremendous respect for RMC (GW even reps RMC's products).

Again, your unsubstantiated ad hominem assertions diminish your and BK's credibility.

I am sure also that there are Japanese people who have bought from GW, ELC and others and think that they got a better jacket than McCoy's.

Respectfully, yet another silly statement. I am sure there are many Americans who bought from RMC and think they got a better jacket than a GW or ELC. That proves exactly nothing.

For reasons that are unclear, BK plainly has palpable animosity for RMC. This is not the first time BK has targeted RMC in its internet forum posts. Why is it so hard for BK to concede that BOTH RMC and BK make stellar products, and both companies built their respective reputations based on quality rather than pricing. As I have told Andy several times, BK would be viewed more favorably if it ceased the foregoing silly/pejorative comments. You don't see GW stating that its competitors built their reputations based on pricing, or beating the table that GW jackets are superior to others. To the contrary, JC understands that he has not cornered the market on quality, and he has a healthy respect for those who make quality jackets, even if they are his competitors. Ironically, JC's respectful approach is one of the reasons for his immense success. Rather than beating his chest and/or disparaging his competitors, JC allows his products to speak for themselves; and JC's products speak loudly, without being diluted by unnecessary rhetoric.

 

[Vcruiser]

Spot on post Super...but I don't think BK or their reps will ever realize/understand any of what you just explained so well. :?
Van

 

[ButteMT61]

Spot on post Super...but I don't think BK or their reps will ever realize/understand any of what you just explained so well. :?
Van

It's kinda like expecting the world to stop fighting, Van. Ain't gonna happen...

 

[TOMG1401]

We all find a way to rationalize the things we want, from jackets to p@ssy, always have, always will.

 

[ButteMT61]

We all find a way to rationalize the things we want, from jackets to p@ssy, always have, always will.

Who needs to rationalize p@ssy? Not I.

 

[Anonymous]

Superfluous, respectfully, all your statements are silly.

First of all my statements did not try to diminish McCoy. Where did you see that? McCoy is a respected brand, nobody can deny their quality/reputation, and certainly not me.

What I said is that there are many people who believe McCoy is the best without having seen one. How can you deny that?

BK plainly has palpable animosity for RMC

I am sorry but this is complete bullshit man. Where do you get that from?
I never mentioned BK in my posts and did not compare BK with RMC.
And if I want to believe that a vendor makes a better product that someone else, it's my right to think it and say it, whether you like it or not. Like you have the right to say whatever you want. And stop linking everything I say to BK. And stop that nonsense that the products speak for themselves. Yes, they do speak for themselves and I also speak about them if I want to.
I am not only the BK rep, I am also a jacket enthusiast like everybody else here and I own ELC, GW and RMC jackets and I am entitled to my opinion like everyone else. So bugger off.

I am sure there are many Americans who bought from RMC and think they got a better jacket than a GW or ELC. That proves exactly nothing.

Exactly, it doesn't prove that RMC are better.

But or the sake of the argument let's look at the below comparison

GW jacket ---- RMC jacket
----------------------------------------------------------
Original pattern ---- Original pattern ---- same thing
Shinki HH ---- Shinki HH ---- same quality
100% cotton lining ---- 100% cotton lining ---- same quality
100% cotton thread ---- 100% cotton thread ---- same quality
Talon Repro zip ---- Talon Repro zip ---- same (from the same factory)
Repro spec tag ---- Repro spec tag ---- same quality
wool knits ---- wool knits ---- GW are better weave
construction quality ---- construction quality ---- same (both jackets made by very experienced machinists)
custom made ---- mass produced ---- GW beats RMC
price $1549 ---- price $2000

Explain to me please why RMC is more expensive, if it's not the higher labor cost.
Where do you see the higher quality than GW? Where? In what? Come on, educate me.

Almost everything from Japan is like twice more expensive than anywhere else. What happens? Do the Japanese beat everyone else in quality? Twice? Ha ha, I don't think so. Japan is a high labor cost country, and Tokyo is one of the most expensive cities in the world. Western people like products from Japan because they are well made and because to them are exotic. (Yes I read this online).

RMC is a very good brand and I admire their range. They are a big company and can produce almost every WWII item of clothing there is. Well done for them. Nobody can beat that.

But are their A-2 jackets better quality than GW? I don't know man. Where do you base that?
High quality OK. But higher than GW? Why? How?

GW is like e.g. bespoke tailors Savile Row of London while RMC sell "off the rack".
From those who are serious about men's clothing, find me one who will say that "off the rack" is better than bespoke.

So, I am sorry, but I don't think RMC's higher price translates to higher quality. Higher labor costs, higher overheads maybe, but higher quality? Hard to prove that.

 

[blackrat2]

Good thread....I understand fully about original versus repro...but I just fear wearing an original is a risky prospect,I would imagine most here would be mortified of damaging a jacket beyond repair,I haven't had many original A2's in my hands but the most solid I did have I never really wore.
Yes repro's are expensive and like many here I am honestly maxed out price wise,but as has been said there is still demand and therefore I guess the market will remain atleast for the time.
Will the next generations still want WW2 garments I am not sure,so I ask this of the makers on this site,did or do films such as Redtails etc etc see a sudden up in your sales?...I include this to caps and all other garments I guess.
I know personally I have seen items of clothing in films such as Saving Private Ryan and got a hankering for roughouts

 

[Superfluous]

Platon,

Please read my post again. Please note that I NEVER once stated that RMC is superior to GW. I also NEVER once stated that RMC is superior to BK. Rather, I clearly and unambiguously stated that all three brands are exceptional. Thus, your argumentative tone and demand that I justify RMC's purported superiority is entirely unwarranted, inapposite, and further illustrates my constructive criticism regarding BK.

As you correctly observe, GW's willingness to customize jackets is a HUGE benefit, and one that distinguishes GW from RMC. The same is true of BK. Kudos to GW and BK for offering bespoke jackets. I have been very fortunate that my two RMC jackets fit me remarkably well. That said, if I had the option, I might have made a couple of small changes. However, as you correctly observe, I did not have that option. A definite plus for GW and BK.

Your math is also off -- $2,000 is not twice $1,550 -- not even close. Moreover, my RMC Buco J-100 was not $2,000. Rather, RMC's Buco J-100 is currently $1,700 if purchased from RMC or a Japan AD. BK does not offer a similar jacket, and I prefer the RMC to the similarly styled jackets offered by Himel and GW (both of which are priced very close to the RMC). My RMC Oklahoma was $2,000. However, no one else offered a similarly styled deerskin jacket, and the deerskin used by RMC is superlative. Finally, I NEVER stated that a RMC jacket is worth more than a GW jacket, nor did I attempt to justify any differential between the prices of the foregoing jacket manufacturers. RMC is close enough in price to GW that, for me, it comes down to subjective personal preference. If I was purchasing an A-2, I would likely focus on a GW or BK. For a Buco J-100 or Deerskin Oklahoma, I prefer the RMC. If the RMC jackets were in fact twice the price of GW alternatives, that would make me reconsider. Fortunately, the price differential -- at least for the RMCs that I own -- is considerably less.

RMC licenses the Buco name for the label and collar snap of its J-100 jacket (as opposed to many jacket manufacturers who replicate labels without paying license fees). I have no idea how much RMC pays for this license and how that affects the price of its J-100.

You claim that you are not disrespecting RMC, but you stated in your prior post that RMC's reputation was built on higher prices, rather than quality. That, my friend, is disrespect. I asked you for evidence supporting this hypothesis -- you offered none. You did, however, acknowledge that RMC's quality is first rate.

You also stated in both posts that "there are many people who believe McCoy is the best without having seen one." I asked you for evidence supporting this hypothesis -- you offered none.

Like it or not, you are a spokesman for BK.

One day, you will hopefully recognize that I am not BK's enemy, nor a detractor of the brand. To the contrary, I have tremendous respect for BK. In fact, I have been trying to acquire a BK jacket for several months, precisely because I think so highly of the brand. I suspect you would be surprised to know that, in private conversations, I have repeatedly defended BK against those who disparage your and Andy's marketing approach. I know more than one jacket collector who refuses to buy BK products because of your and Andy's posts, and they question my interest in the brand. I tell them them to look beyond your posts and focus on the quality of the leather and workmanship. IMHO, BK would fair better if its promotors did not create this type of distraction from the wonderful products offered by the company. Your products speak for themselves.

I hope I will be able to own a BK jacket soon so that I can speak to the quality firsthand.

Read my words carefully Platon -- I am on your side.

 

[John Lever]

I am now on the very edge of what I can justify when spending on a new repro. This year may see things improve for us in the UK with the strengthening GPB, but the last few years must have killed the UK market.

 

[ausreenactor]

I am now on the very edge of what I can justify when spending on a new repro. This year may see things improve for us in the UK with the strengthening GPB, but the last few years must have killed the UK market.

Eastman and Aero would have been lovin' it.

Couchy

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your comment.
I would like to apologize from everyone here for going out of topic. I apologize also on Super's behalf.

Dear Super, let's leave BK out of this. It was never part of the discussion.

RMC make a good jacket indeed and many people who don't own one believe so because they heard so from people like you who own 1 or 2 and they have no reason to doubt you, or they are in awe because of the high price (which should count for something). It's the same like e.g. the Hyundai accent car owner believes that e.g. a Mercedes car is better than his (because he heard so and because the latter is more expensive) without ever having owned one.

Generally, if something costs higher it is implied that it is better than something else of the same kind which is cheaper, and for this reason its seller demands higher price. But when 2 items are exactly the same quality and one costs higher than the other, then there's got to be a reasonable explanation/justification of the higher price. For me. in the RMC case I think it's the higher labor/high cost of materials factor that does it, since the materials and craftsmanship is the same with e.g. GW. If you have a different opinion, let me hear it please.

So you may never stated that RMC is superior to GW, but their higher price implies it.
So if the RMC A-2 is not superior than the GW and high labor is not the reason for the higher price, then that reason should be the 'brand name'. (In which case, go ahead and buy, I 'll pass). I stated earlier that I could pay $3-4,000 for a new leather jacket that worth it. If the jacket costs to the maker $200 to make and the rest $2800 is for the brand name, thanks, I won't buy that.

About my math. I wasn't referring to jackets in particular. You can buy an excellent pair of jeans from USA (Levi's) for $35-$50. * Some Japanese brands sell their jeans from $200 - $400. Do you think they are so much greater to deserve to cost almost 10 times the price?

You claim that you are not disrespecting RMC, but you stated in your prior post that RMC's reputation was built on higher prices, rather than quality.

For the sake of clarity I repeat my post:

McCoy's have built a reputation but just because they 're the most expensive doesn't make them the best.

and explain, McCoy's have built a reputation (due to their high quality etc etc etc) but their highest price should not mean their jackets are the best. Where is the disrespect in that?

In many cases, people believe that the high price of an object means high quality, and the higher the price, the higher the quality and if one product costs more than another, it is most likely because it's of higher quality. So many times in the customer's subconscious the most expensive should be the best. Someone who has studied Marketing can help me here.




* In UK the same costs GBP70 ($119) and in Europe EUR90-123 ($122-$166).

 

[Tim P]

Truth is, I am out of the game. The prices have crept up beyond inflation and I don't really see more bang for your buck resulting.
If there is a new improved more accurate design, what was being cranked out as a stitch for stitch replica before?
As with anything, when the price differential between a mid range, say us authentic type deal, and high end is so vast..... there comes a point when the holy grail dented nipple snap deadstock thread and zip jacket with contrived areas of graining and so on becomes a case of throwing bad money after good.

 

[JDAM]

but I just fear wearing an original is a risky prospect,I would imagine most here would be mortified of damaging a jacket beyond repair

There are hundreds and thousands of original A-2 out there. Many are perfect wearers, built just as robustly as modern repros. Naturally, if you have your hands on a real documented piece of history, with art and provenance, then best not wear it very much. I hope that's obvious to all concerned. But most originals are nameless pieces of hard-wearing utilitarian gear. I think they should be worn as intended. Decent ones have a lot of wear in them. It's not like you'll be getting through one a month. I had an original wearer that I wore a couple of times a week for over ten years and it ended up fine. Don't be too careful; it's no fun at all.

 

[TankBuster]

but I just fear wearing an original is a risky prospect,I would imagine most here would be mortified of damaging a jacket beyond repair

There are hundreds and thousands of original A-2 out there. Many are perfect wearers, built just as robustly as modern repros. Naturally, if you have your hands on a real documented piece of history, with art and provenance, then best not wear it very much. I hope that's obvious to all concerned. But most originals are nameless pieces of hard-wearing utilitarian gear. I think they should be worn as intended. Decent ones have a lot of wear in them. It's not like you'll be getting through one a month. I had an original wearer that I wore a couple of times a week for over ten years and it ended up fine. Don't be too careful; it's no fun at all.

Exactly! Well said. I have had many originals over the years that were just as sturdy as any repro jacket that cost me right around what repro jackets were selling for. I have no gripe with any repro jacket maker. It's their product, and they can charge what they like. If the market will bear it, why not! For me personally, I would rather buy a solid original if they are priced the same (which they definitely are these days).

 

[John Lever]

Some originals are very rare and often unwearable if available. How many solid m444's are there in a size 44 ?

 

[ButteMT61]

Some originals are very rare and often unwearable if available. How many solid m444's are there in a size 44 ?

That's a lot of 4's John...

It's interesting that so many have set a limit far below current top-shelf offerings. I wonder if the vendors are seeing a lower order rate?

 

[John Lever]

There must be a Bingo joke there somewhere !!
I get the feeling that the Far East might be the major market for the big players. I know that that RMNZ are snowed under with trade orders from now until November. I think that Eastman is also selling well in China.

 

[JDAM]

Some originals are very rare and often unwearable if available. How many solid m444's are there in a size 44 ?

No argument there. When it comes to shearling it's clearly a different ball game. As for A-2, there are thirty or so wearable originals on Ebay right now, in sizes from 38 to 48.

 

[Rutger]

$1000-ish for leather.
$400-ish for nylon.

 

[JDAM]

Half the price of a posh repro. C'mon!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Bomber-Jac ... 7675.l2557