John Lever
Moderator
Superfluous said:
Yes I saw it on eBay,sorry if I unintentionally misled.
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What is the limit on the price of a repro ?
- Thread starter John Lever
- Start date
Yes I saw it on eBay,sorry if I unintentionally misled.
This is an interesting debate. I would not pay more than $1000 for a new high end repro A2. As Vic says the loss at re-sale becomes too heavy if one sells a more expensive repro.
As it has been remarked high end repros cost more than many decent, wearable original A2s or Irvins for example. I know the market for original jackets is significantly smaller than that for reproductions and is reflected by the membership here.
Certainly there are more posts here on reproduction jackets than originals, which reflects the interests and collections of current members. Also there seems to be far fewer new threads these days on original jackets on VLJ, which is disappointing. Even when people take the time to photograph jackets in their collection and post them on the forum they tend to get fewer replies than they would have got a few years ago which may be a reflection of members' interests in repros over originals. Quite a few original members who own original jackets have stopped posting regularly or have left VLJ.
We all know the price of repros has rocketed recently whilst the price for many originals has dropped. Most people would not buy a jacket and not wear it, but they would wear their reproduction jacket and happily abuse it. But not an original!
As it has been remarked high end repros cost more than many decent, wearable original A2s or Irvins for example. I know the market for original jackets is significantly smaller than that for reproductions and is reflected by the membership here.
Certainly there are more posts here on reproduction jackets than originals, which reflects the interests and collections of current members. Also there seems to be far fewer new threads these days on original jackets on VLJ, which is disappointing. Even when people take the time to photograph jackets in their collection and post them on the forum they tend to get fewer replies than they would have got a few years ago which may be a reflection of members' interests in repros over originals. Quite a few original members who own original jackets have stopped posting regularly or have left VLJ.
We all know the price of repros has rocketed recently whilst the price for many originals has dropped. Most people would not buy a jacket and not wear it, but they would wear their reproduction jacket and happily abuse it. But not an original!
John Lever
Moderator
Andrew I am surprised that none of your repro A2's cost over $1000
I did not say that John. I said I would not pay more than $1000 for a new high end repro A2. For sure I have on a very few occasions spent this on a new high end repro GW A2, but not recently as the re-sale value has not kept pace proportionally with the inflation in repro prices.John Lever said:
Superfluous
Member
John Lever said:
No need to apologize. Although RMC has a few ADs outside Japan -- e.g., Superdenim, BlueInGreen and Gentry -- the most cost efficient way for US patrons to purchase RMC is either from RMC itself or from one of the Japanese ADs that ships abroad (Superdenim may be more cost efficient for UK buyers).
ButteMT61 said:
One of each may be a tad excessive, but RMC certainly does have a broad selection of jackets. Moreover, and more to the point of this thread, RMC's prices are within the ballpark of what other premier repro manufacturers are charging. GW is north of $1,600. Himel is north of $2,000 for most models. Eastman is $1,500+. BK is a tad lower (kudos to them). While RMC jackets may not be bench/custom made (neither is Eastman), their quality is superlative.
As to the limit one would/should pay for a repro jacket, most of us are well beyond any notion of the point of diminishing returns. There are plenty of $500 and less jackets available that will satisfy the vast majority of our pragmatic needs. We speak of quality, but a well made $500 jacket will outlive most of us. None of us need a $700, $1,000 or $1,500 jacket to keep warm. Moreover, the general public is completely unaware of the subtle differences between a $500 jacket and a $1,500 jacket, and we, therefore, look equally sharp/well dressed to the general public in both. Thus, once we get beyond $500, the analysis becomes wildly subjective, emotional and influenced by external factors/limitations. We pay 2-4x what we need to pay for details lost on everyone but ourselves. No one else may know what we are wearing, but WE KNOW. We pay 2-4x what we need to pay because we derive some amount of internal pleasure from the jacket, even though no one else has a clue. The value one places on that internal joy is, obviously, entirely subjective. Some will pay $700 for the smile -- others will pay $2,000 -- some would pay $2,000, but external factors dictate otherwise. Either way, it is an unnecessary expenditure which defies objective justification.
Part of the analysis also depends on where one is in the cycle of collecting jackets. In the beginning, most of us proclaimed that we would "never pay xxxxx for a leather jacket! That's insane!" Later, as our addiction evolved, we broke through those initial barriers. Suddenly, we were paying the amounts we previously swore we would never pay. We, therefore, established new limits, and again swore to abide by the new threshold. Six months later, . . . . you get the point.
I am a sober alcoholic/drug user. Before I smoked pot for the first time, I swore I would never do so. I did. Then, I swore I would never use cocaine. I did. Etc. etc. etc, until I was a human garbage disposal. The evolution is very similar.
I have seen threads similar to this in many different collector's/enthusiast forums. For example, I collect watches (less than I used to). Watch collectors often talk about the limit one would/should pay for a watch. The variation is far greater than the above-discussion regarding jackets. Moreover, the constantly increasing threshold is stunning. When I first began collecting watches, I spoke pejoratively of those who spent what I naively deemed excessive amounts for watches. As time passed, I was spending those amounts and more. As with leather jackets, one can purchase a functional, good looking watch for a fraction of what other watches cost. Likewise, the general public has no idea that you are wearing a unique engineering masterpiece on your wrist. Nevertheless, watches -- like leather jackets -- are a source of internal pleasure for me and, therefore, I pay more than objectively warranted (less today than before).
Most of the members of this forum likely have other passions that follow similar trends. Is a $300 bottle of wine worth it, as compared to a $40 bottle of wine? How about a $50 cigar?
Objective justifications are largely pointless. Enjoy the smiles you derive from whatever amount you elect to spend.
fishmeok
Well-Known Member
Hello
I try to stay off the forum unless I have something cool to post not related to the jackets I make, but I think I can give an opinion from both sides. This is purely my opinion and my experience in garment manufacturing is limited to what I have personally done. This post ended up getting long-winded, apologies in advance.
I started out as a total WWII AAF geek- I was still working on airplanes when I started getting serious about A-2's and learned about the different contracts. I had a Cooper that I bought in 1989 (still have it, can’t fit into it..) that was my first A-2. Back then I had no idea there were different contracts, or even makers. John's flight jacket CD and the forums opened my eyes, suddenly I started noticing all the little differences and details. I started buying low-end repros, and kept discarding them and moving up the jacket chain as I realized how far off they were from the originals. I eventually learned how to make my own (a process that has taken 7 years and counting). I have made jackets from 5 contracts (2 different Aero contracts, Dubow, Doniger, and Cable) and each one is unique and something of a revelation- every manufacturer used different patterns, different methods, different techniques. Some are much better than others, some obviously put a lot more thought into what they made than others.
From a functional standpoint you can get a jacket for $50 on e-bay that looks mostly like an A-2- and if that is what you are looking for that’s great, I have been there and done the same thing. With a higher end repro you are paying for the research, the sourcing, the years of practice and obsession that makes a garment which is as close as humanly possible to what would have been issued in WWII (same goes for the civy jackets). You are also paying for something that will last years- probably longer than most of us will be able to wear it. I’m not defending insane fashion industry pricing, only the pricing that lets us sell jackets and still pay our bills and support our families. These jackets are not mass produced, it’s one guy in his basement or a few people on sewing machines cranking out as much as they can. For me I MUST make enough to cover ALL expenses, or this is just a hobby I cannot afford. As it is, I still work a full time job in addition to making jackets.
It’s this passion and dedication you are paying for when you buy one of our (and I use that term collectively, not just for me) jackets. I have e-mails in my inbox every day from people in Pakistan and China offering to make my jackets for pennies on the dollar (and also see details I have on mine being copied, but that is unavoidable). I could have set up a deal by now cranking out craptastic A-2’s by the bucket load from overseas if that was what I wanted. That does not interest me, I want to design, pattern and make them to my own satisfaction, with my own hands, in my own shop. This is what drives us (collective “us” again, like the royal “we”). I’m sure it’s a terrible business model, but obviously we don’t do it for the money.
You can certainly buy an original if you can find one that fits, but all these jackets are hitting 70 to 80 years old now. I personally don’t feel comfortable wearing them around, even the near mint M-422A and halfbelts I have.
Thank You
Mark Fisher
I try to stay off the forum unless I have something cool to post not related to the jackets I make, but I think I can give an opinion from both sides. This is purely my opinion and my experience in garment manufacturing is limited to what I have personally done. This post ended up getting long-winded, apologies in advance.
I started out as a total WWII AAF geek- I was still working on airplanes when I started getting serious about A-2's and learned about the different contracts. I had a Cooper that I bought in 1989 (still have it, can’t fit into it..) that was my first A-2. Back then I had no idea there were different contracts, or even makers. John's flight jacket CD and the forums opened my eyes, suddenly I started noticing all the little differences and details. I started buying low-end repros, and kept discarding them and moving up the jacket chain as I realized how far off they were from the originals. I eventually learned how to make my own (a process that has taken 7 years and counting). I have made jackets from 5 contracts (2 different Aero contracts, Dubow, Doniger, and Cable) and each one is unique and something of a revelation- every manufacturer used different patterns, different methods, different techniques. Some are much better than others, some obviously put a lot more thought into what they made than others.
From a functional standpoint you can get a jacket for $50 on e-bay that looks mostly like an A-2- and if that is what you are looking for that’s great, I have been there and done the same thing. With a higher end repro you are paying for the research, the sourcing, the years of practice and obsession that makes a garment which is as close as humanly possible to what would have been issued in WWII (same goes for the civy jackets). You are also paying for something that will last years- probably longer than most of us will be able to wear it. I’m not defending insane fashion industry pricing, only the pricing that lets us sell jackets and still pay our bills and support our families. These jackets are not mass produced, it’s one guy in his basement or a few people on sewing machines cranking out as much as they can. For me I MUST make enough to cover ALL expenses, or this is just a hobby I cannot afford. As it is, I still work a full time job in addition to making jackets.
It’s this passion and dedication you are paying for when you buy one of our (and I use that term collectively, not just for me) jackets. I have e-mails in my inbox every day from people in Pakistan and China offering to make my jackets for pennies on the dollar (and also see details I have on mine being copied, but that is unavoidable). I could have set up a deal by now cranking out craptastic A-2’s by the bucket load from overseas if that was what I wanted. That does not interest me, I want to design, pattern and make them to my own satisfaction, with my own hands, in my own shop. This is what drives us (collective “us” again, like the royal “we”). I’m sure it’s a terrible business model, but obviously we don’t do it for the money.
You can certainly buy an original if you can find one that fits, but all these jackets are hitting 70 to 80 years old now. I personally don’t feel comfortable wearing them around, even the near mint M-422A and halfbelts I have.
Thank You
Mark Fisher
ButteMT61
Well-Known Member
I've gone back to trolling for WWII era jackets in my size. I've been searching for a handful that if I get lucky with, would make me happy and I would wear them. Andrew is right about the prices. Once the $1100 mark was hit, I started to lose some interest in actually writing the check. That's why I got somewhat excited thinking that GW might offer the lower-priced lineup - knowing it would be accurate and right, but not $1600 right.
I've still got two of my first jackets from when I re-started 5-6 years ago made by USWings. Yeah, not worth bringing up here, but they are great beaters and the hides are really nice. I don't lose sleep about damaging them, or getting them stolen, etc.
I last year got rid of almost 10 jackets - not all leather, and most of those I donated to local charities for homeless and Vets.
I'm "down to" about 10 jackets in total now, and happier. I actually wear them.
I'll admit too to the lack of wanting to wait 8-16 months for a new jacket.
I've still got two of my first jackets from when I re-started 5-6 years ago made by USWings. Yeah, not worth bringing up here, but they are great beaters and the hides are really nice. I don't lose sleep about damaging them, or getting them stolen, etc.
I last year got rid of almost 10 jackets - not all leather, and most of those I donated to local charities for homeless and Vets.
I'm "down to" about 10 jackets in total now, and happier. I actually wear them.
I'll admit too to the lack of wanting to wait 8-16 months for a new jacket.
ausreenactor
Well-Known Member
Roughwear said:
On the money there Andrew. I think it applies to nylons and cloth as well (repros that is). I found that I generally had the potential to turn a tidy profit on the majority of Buzz Rickson sales when factoring in eBay's fees and subsidised shipping. I have a box of four Buzz Rickson Tankers here awaiting the release of 'Fury' later this year. Good larger sizes and a couple of first patterns all in as new condition. I had hoped for the Aussie dollar to fall a bit more and failed to capitalise on the US$0.88 dollar earlier this year but that was short lived. I have a couple of Good Wears I have high hopes for on the sale market. While generally sellers are content with getting their money back I inadvertently secured the pair just before the price rise at Good Wear. One is a really great fit and the other is a really great hide. If only one of the two was 'both'. If that makes any sense. It is my intent to use the exchange rate and elevated baseline price to make a bit of a profit.
With regard to the highest price, well that goes to 'The Beast' which was a post-war splurge. It was a long time in the making and I honestly could not be happier with an A-2. With the NOS Crown and the HBT lining that were sourced for the build it topped out at just over US$1700. I am not concerned with the resale, as I am never going to sell it after a six year hunt for something similar out of Japan in a wearable size. In the end I got a jacket with a period correct zipper for the contract, a sensational one off hide (thanks Andy), a superb Werber design and the HBT lining fit for a warrior! And getting it on the day before I departed for the USA to use as my wearer in the cooler US winter added to the jacket's 'value'. The main thing for me was the forbidden fruit factor. I could not get one at any price... until I could get one at the aforementioned price. Then the price, for a time, was irrelevant.
I think the motivations and planning at any given time are the key factors when outlaying a new purchase. The interaction in the weeks/months prior to the final commitment and the satisfaction on the day you get that long awaited jacket are the principal components of the jacket's worth. Would I pay the same amount for another repro A-2. Certainly not. I have not had six months in a shitty corner of the world to devote to the planning and building the hype for my prize at the end, and my days of painted, thematic high end repros are over. There are other events on my bucket list/wish list that would cost less than A-2 for a one off, but would cost me my marriage and children (lets say if one of the two lasses was chatty
). So living out my dreams with a jacket or two is a small price in comparison. Like many I LOVE a bargain or reasonably priced second hand jacket and in all the years I have been buying and selling (1997 was the first few Eastmans) the Buzz B-2 has spent more time on my back than any other jacket. At the moment I am wearing it inside. I am not conditioned to these 10 degree mornings and evenings in Sydney. I do not know how you guys cope with REAL cold. I would be wearing an Aero or Buzz Rickson B-7 daily. And they never come cheap.
There was a pic on the web on a shooter's page somewhere (never ask me what I would pay for a real or replica firearm). The applicable theme of the pic/meme was
"My only fear in life is that when I die my wife sells my jackets for what I told her I paid for them!"
I am sure that this would be applicable in some cases here?
Great question John!! Some really good responses too.
Couchy
blackrat2
Well-Known Member
Agree Couchy,this thread has provoked some thought.
I still feel repro jackets represent value for money against an original,this from a wearability perspective,I had an original for a short time and was far to scared to wear it.
Prices of leather and hard wear I assume will continue to rise and I figure that the more us,the buyer crave the rare contracts,which will involve research then prices will creep up perhaps until a manufacturer launches a cheaper jacket which if it's anything like the supermarkets here will encourage other makers to drop there prices to remain competitive
I still feel repro jackets represent value for money against an original,this from a wearability perspective,I had an original for a short time and was far to scared to wear it.
Prices of leather and hard wear I assume will continue to rise and I figure that the more us,the buyer crave the rare contracts,which will involve research then prices will creep up perhaps until a manufacturer launches a cheaper jacket which if it's anything like the supermarkets here will encourage other makers to drop there prices to remain competitive
TankBuster
Active Member
I will keep it simple. My number is $900. Any more than that and I have no interest in laying down that kind of cash. Nice original wearers in my size (44) can be had these days for $1,100-$1,400.
Vcruiser
Well-Known Member
To have a jacket fit the way I want it(for my build)..I must go with a custom made jacket. After several repro A2s and an original A2(that fits OK)..I gradually lost interests in A2s and gravitated more toward utility civi jacket repros. Again truly vintage civi jackets rarely fit to my liking. Fortunately I purchased several Aero civi jackets in styles that I liked when they were priced in the $500-550 range and the last couple before the prices bumped up over the $800 mark. I've been temped by some of the newer styles by several different companies...but then realize that the ones I now own are exceptional in their own right and I do enjoy wearing them each time I put them on. The fit is precise (for me) and the hides quite nice as well. So..now I have my wearers...and really don't want for or need any more. It's not really a limit for me on price as much as the realization that what is newly offered doesn't really surpass what I have now(for me) and that can be a good feeling. Now I just wear the hell out of the jackets I own and I probably still have more than I actually need.
Van
Van
ausreenactor
Well-Known Member
Vcruiser said:
Not on your own there!!
ButteMT61
Well-Known Member
I'm with Van on those points. I also have to wonder what the high-end repop market will look like, in five, ten years from now. I have to think that the glamour of WWII gear will trend downwards and there will be a smaller market. Maybe I'm 100% wrong, but look at the age of most here and in similar places. I do know some "kids" that are into it but it will be interesting to see if this $1500+ and rising segment can withstand the future.
I think the market for civi repops will remain strong and even grow with time. But all I know is that my stuff looks better when I have less and give it actual wear time.
I got caught up in the whole manic world of getting my first custom and getting bit. But I too have only two remaining WWII repops now and the rest civi. I'm gravitating towards that market now. The current prices and wait times make it fairly easy to pass.
I think the market for civi repops will remain strong and even grow with time. But all I know is that my stuff looks better when I have less and give it actual wear time.
I got caught up in the whole manic world of getting my first custom and getting bit. But I too have only two remaining WWII repops now and the rest civi. I'm gravitating towards that market now. The current prices and wait times make it fairly easy to pass.
John Lever
Moderator
The $1k price has been used by many here as a kind of datum. Having briefly checked a couple of websites , some Aero A2 's were the only ones in that range. That means to very many people all the other jackets are out of thier reach and some companies have no jackets at all that are affordable.
I think my brain has an inbuilt algorithm that takes care of all those decisions for me.. some times it says yay, sometimes it says nay.
When talking about a handmade item, I am happy to pay a price that provides the maker with the income that he or she deserves... I couldn't buy them all the time though.
When talking about a handmade item, I am happy to pay a price that provides the maker with the income that he or she deserves... I couldn't buy them all the time though.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Sure Brute,
I would pay an amount of $3-4,000 for a new leather jacket that worth it, so that's my limit for repro/leather jacket.
I would pay up to $2,000 for a mint original A-2 so that's my personal limit for original;
and to answer to John's question specifically I think that there should be no limit on the price of a repro, however, I would tend to agree that the figure of $1,000 sounds OK for most.
However, having seen a ton of leather jackets (mainly fashion) which are priced between $1,000-$2,000 and are made with crappy leather and materials, and between us, they don't have much to say in terms of design, I would have thought it unfair to sell for much higher than a good quality repro.
To show you what I mean, many of those jackets have knitted cuffs where the cuffs (nylon) are not tubular, but linear and the two ends sewn together to make the tube. They jackets have YKK zips, ring snaps (or worse), nylon thread, polyester lining (the cheapest stuff) etc. Those jackets which piece of cake to make are mass produced and yet they sell for $2,000 or more.
In comparison, the difficulty of making an accurate repro A-2 is enormous. I dare you to find cotton thread, cotton lining of the correct weight/weave, correct type knits etc. Let alone the snaps, zippers etc and the hand made job.
But in a world where the G&B A-2 sells for $738.00 how do you expect to buy the GW for $1,000?
The two are miles/ages apart.
The dollar is weak lately and that is a problem, but it seems most makers, even the not accurate ones have increased their prices.
colekwok
Active Member
Wow, this is such a great thread. I have the same feeling of being pricing out of the market recently. Good thing for me as my collection is now limited to one Eastman, one BK and two Aeros, all these were bought before the high price hike where Aero was selling their A-2 at £350 and Eastman for £500 while the BK was one of their earlier patterns. Just before JC raise his price, I was enquiring about the Star Sportswear A-2, but then while I really tried to thumb down the order, the price was then $1.5k plus custom/VAT in the UK.
At the end of the say, it is supply and demand. There were occasions where I chatted with some jacket enthusiasts, they really rate McCoy's highly while they don't really care much about ELC nor GW. For most premium A-2 buyers in Asia, they only care about the slimmer fit, which Real McCoy (or even Buzz) can provide, and they 'almost' always prefer the ones with patches and paint works.
As for originals, I do not think I have the financial power to start collecting them. I have a couple of nice nylons, but that's about it. But like I mentioned in another thread before, the price for original nylons is steadily rising. It looks to me that there are collectors scooping up a lot of them in the past 2-3 years. Just wait and see.
At the end of the say, it is supply and demand. There were occasions where I chatted with some jacket enthusiasts, they really rate McCoy's highly while they don't really care much about ELC nor GW. For most premium A-2 buyers in Asia, they only care about the slimmer fit, which Real McCoy (or even Buzz) can provide, and they 'almost' always prefer the ones with patches and paint works.
As for originals, I do not think I have the financial power to start collecting them. I have a couple of nice nylons, but that's about it. But like I mentioned in another thread before, the price for original nylons is steadily rising. It looks to me that there are collectors scooping up a lot of them in the past 2-3 years. Just wait and see.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Many people rate McCoy's highly without ever having seen one in person.
McCoy's have built a reputation but just because they 're the most expensive doesn't make them the best.
I think it was said elsewhere that the reason for their high price is more of a high labor cost thing than a high quality thing. (Not that high quality is not there).
I am sure also that there are Japanese people who have bought from GW, ELC and others and think that they got a better jacket than McCoy's.
McCoy's have built a reputation but just because they 're the most expensive doesn't make them the best.
I think it was said elsewhere that the reason for their high price is more of a high labor cost thing than a high quality thing. (Not that high quality is not there).
I am sure also that there are Japanese people who have bought from GW, ELC and others and think that they got a better jacket than McCoy's.
Peter Graham
Well-Known Member
JDAM said:
My sentiments entirely. I've never bought a new repro of any jacket and I probably never will. If I was feeling flush I might shell out £400 for a used Good Wear but that's about tops.
