The veg tanned conspiracy rant !

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Chrome Tanned Jerky Horse was copied by our tannery from two original Aero WW2 A-2s, in almost 40 years making A-2s it's as close as anything we found..................Cocker?

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

I seem to recall reading somewhere (I think in the forum) that chrome tanning today is different to chrome tanning in the 1940’s, but how different. Looking at a description of the chrome tanning process on Wikipedia it’s difficult to understand it could be a process that’s changed that much.

Does a leather exist that is a chrome tanned near as practically possible perfect copy of the leather A-2’s were made from originally? If yes, which repro makers use it?

Of course there is/was a huge difference between some of the Horse used by original makers

Dubow (Horween Horse)
Aero
Roughwear
1756 Contract
Bronco

All quite different and each one fairly distinctive

 

[Julius]

Does a leather exist that is a chrome tanned near as practically possible perfect copy of the leather A-2’s were made from originally? If yes, which repro makers use it?

I was told that chrome tanned horse leather and a veg tanned horse leather do not differ at all in appearance if they are tanned to look the same. And that nobody is be able distinguish them by just looking or touching them, without conducting any tests.

 

[Silver Surfer]

my add to, to this thread is from my personal experience, not science. i have found that the weight-thickness of the hh or for that matter moo, varies all over the place, from paper thin hides to mc jacket weight hides. this is especiall true of jackets made through out 1942-1942+. in another thread i wrote that it is my OPINION that some pre wwll a-2s were made using veg-aniline tanning. during the 1930s through 1940 -early 41 there was no rush to make a-2s [small us army air force] and expediency was not an issue. thus the process of veg-aniline tanning would simply be included in the time it took to make quality a-2s . the time, and attention to detail that 1930s- early 40s a-2s have were for the most part eliminated as of the us entry into wwll. sewn collar clasps? gone. veg-aniline? gone, jetting? gone, top stitched wrist and waistbands? gone, collar stands? [except for rw and perry] gone. also, like any contractors to any armed forces, anytime though out history, some contractors cut corners when they could, while others made the best garment, gear, etc that they could. ya know, like a company taking pride in their product, and having their name on it.....just like today [humor]

 

[Julius]

Silver Surfer that's right.
One document I 've seen that says chrome tan was prevailing dates 1941
and so is the 9-77-B specification. So who knows what was happening before that.

33-1729 I just sent you the KK-L-170 in private like I promised.

 

[Earloffunk]

Just to remind you:
„I will remain silent until I give you that reply and give the documents I promised to @33-1729 and then I will leave.“

Just do what you say and then leave.

 

[Cocker]

Chrome Tanned Jerky Horse was copied by our tannery from two original Aero WW2 A-2s, in almost 40 years making A-2s it's as close as anything we found..................Cocker?

It's really very close to all originals I've handled at one point or another.

 

[jeremiah]

Ken, your dog rescue A2. It’s jerky right? From across the pond and on my monitor that looks like an original now hanging on that manikin.

 

[Juanito]

I seem to recall reading somewhere (I think in the forum) that chrome tanning today is different to chrome tanning in the 1940’s, but how different. Looking at a description of the chrome tanning process on Wikipedia it’s difficult to understand it could be a process that’s changed that much.

Does a leather exist that is a chrome tanned near as practically possible perfect copy of the leather A-2’s were made from originally? If yes, which repro makers use it?

While I have only owned maybe 20 originals in the last 35 years or so ranging from an unissued Perry to the Rough Wear jacket A. Swatland restored for me, the leather I found closest in weight, finish, and feel to the originals I have had (except for a Cable and the 2 Aeros I owned) was the horsehide used by Avirex in the late 1980s on the MacArthur A-2.

To be honest, while there is a difference between the veg and chrome tanning, I think we are off the mark here and the larger discussion should be about the finish and why if "true copies" are being made, why they are not pigment finished.

 

[B-Man2]

My apologies for coming into this discussion late, so if I may , I’m in complete agreement with Vic (Silver Surfer) regarding the differences in various makers jackets and contracts being all over the map during the war. I’m also speaking without any scientific proof but simply based on a number of originals I’ve seen and handled over the last 25 years. If you laid 10 originals side by side there would be differences in the hide thickness, drape quality, surface quality and some of the other points we discussed in each of the jackets . While the specs were standardized by the war department the manufacturing processes and materials were not. The repros being made today are about as close as they can be without using the exact processes, chemicals, materials, and no one has mentioned this yet but using the same tools and machinery that was used during the war years. Once again guys just my personal opinion.

 

[Juanito]

My apologies for coming into this discussion late, so if I may , I’m in complete agreement with Vic (Silver Surfer) regarding the differences in various makers jackets and contracts being all over the map during the war. I’m also speaking without any scientific proof but simply based on a number of originals I’ve seen and handled over the last 25 years. If you laid 10 originals side by side there would be differences in the hide thickness, drape quality, surface quality and some of the other points we discussed in each of the jackets . While the specs were standardized by the war department the manufacturing processes and materials were not. The repros being made today are about as close as they can be without using the exact processes, chemicals, materials, and no one has mentioned this yet but using the same tools and machinery that was used during the war years. Once again guys just my personal opinion.

I do not know if it is Stuart's bluster or not, but I distinctly recall talking to him in either 1990 or 1991 where he made the claim that either he had acquired some of Dubow's equipment or that some of Dubow's old employees were working for him--I can't remember which one. In any case, I would find it hard to believe any of Dubow's equipment was still around by the time Stu started making jackets, and I doubt that there were any 70+ year old former Dubow employees working for him.

 

[33-1729]

I hope people aren’t taking the spec values as absolute values as they are not. For example, the thickness spec was used to accept/reject incoming raw material before it was sent to the vendor for manufacture. Spec definitions are a tricky business. They measured thickness carefully, but were they the thinnest sites? The thickest sites? The most variable sites? The least variable sites? I don’t know. I’ve seen many instances where people would move the measurement around, if permitted, so it would pass because rejects were “hard” (“measuring the measurement”). In others words, I believe all of you when you’ve seen a lot of original jacket variation and not just because of their age and varying levels of care. To me, some of the reproductions today are closer to twice the spec thickness rather than a fraction of an inch off. At least they feel that heavy.

I think Juanito has an excellent point. I keep hearing about all the different finishes on top of the tanning and haven’t seen much on that topic. Grain is a big deal for many of us, but see the fed-std-311 excerpt below. When they used pigment keeping the original grain wasn’t a concern, though it would result in an interesting wear effect over time. Weren’t pigment treatments only used for refurbished jackets and not new ones?

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Ken, your dog rescue A2. It’s jerky right? From across the pond and on my monitor that looks like an original now hanging on that manikin.

No it's not Jerky, I'm not 100% sure what it is. It's cut from an small bundle of un-named Horse I found in our sample rack. I wish I did know where the leather came from
Denny is convinced it's Horween but I don't think so, It was a full double front not a quarter, Horween never did that.

 

[Officer Dibley]

Ken, was FQHH commonly used in WW2 to your knowledge ?
I find it too heavy a leather to be honest.
Can you easily tell where on a horse or cow that the hide has come from ?