The veg tanned conspiracy rant !

[Officer Dibley]

I’ve said it on someone else’s thread: the 100% veg tanning of modern repros is bullsh1t. It is a lie peddled to rip us off. It is wrong on two counts imho.
1. It’s a lot more expensive. I’ve bought some veg tanned hide to work with and do experiments on. I know i’ll not have economies of scale but what i paid for the amount of hide was not much more expensive than chrome tanned / analine.
2. I think its’ use was far less prevalent than ELC etc state. The need for leather. For a lot of jackets to be made NOW.
I think that every time you see a period photo of a jacket and think it drapes a lot and the hide must be thinner, you are looking at chrome tanned / analine. Every time the jackets looks stiffer, it’s veg tanned.
Based on my tests, veg tanned is not as waterproof as analine. Not as flexible. Far noisier. Harder to break in, it never gets as flexible as analine.
We can't compare vintage jackets now because they are old, treated well or not, the hide is in a different state to when it was made.
I’ve been carrying and pulling about some veg tanned hide for a month. It remains stiff and inflexible and noisy.

Have at me guys, send me down in flames !!

Dave

 

[jeremiah]

 

[Officer Dibley]

I’m cute and furry & i’m right . Is that what you are saying J ?

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

I’ve said it on someone else’s thread: the 100% veg tanning of modern repros is bullsh1t. It is a lie peddled to rip us off. It is wrong on two counts imho.
1. It’s a lot more expensive. I’ve bought some veg tanned hide to work with and do experiments on. I know i’ll not have economies of scale but what i paid for the amount of hide was not much more expensive than analine.
2. I think its’ use was far less prevalent than ELC etc state. The need for leather. For a lot of jackets to be made NOW.
I think that every time you see a period photo of a jacket and think it drapes a lot and the hide must be thinner, you are looking at analine. Every time the jackets looks stiffer, it’s veg tanned.
Based on my tests, veg tanned is not as waterproof as analine. Not as flexible. Far noisier. Harder to break in, it never gets as flexible as analine.
We can't compare vintage jackets now because they are old, treated well or not, the hide is in a different state to when it was made.
I’ve been carrying and pulling about some veg tanned hide for a month. It remains stiff and inflexible and noisy.

Have at me guys, send me down in flames !!

Dave

You've obviously not tested Vicenza, nor been quoted a price for it

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

If you are only talking A-2s then add in Chrome Tanned
........and don't forget, there is (a lot more) life beyond militaria

 

[Officer Dibley]

As for “life beyond militaria”...... i have many interests thanks

I’ve aded CT to the original post. My error

Dave

 

[Officer Dibley]

You've obviously not tested Vicenza, nor been quoted a price for it

Please send me a sample Ken.
Although it is a red herring because Vincenza and any other fancy hide was not what was used in WW2.
That’s the rip off with SOME makers: get “1942 in a box” by paying a fortune for a custom sized jacket made from a hide not available back in the day and waiting months / years for it.....

 

[jeremiah]

Vicenza might not have been the leather being used in war time but Vicenza is a very nice hide. I have worked with it lots now.

I would wager my wig that the repro jackets of today will certainly be more pliable and wearable 50 years from now compared to the surviving examples of originals we now have. And the thing is, we all want our originals to be pliable and wearable. I don’t want a stiff original that is brittle and worthless aside from displaying in an air tight vacuum.

 

[Officer Dibley]

I don’t disagree Jay. What i am saying is that the comparison between modern repros and originals is rather ridiculous. Apples & oranges. To me anyways. We all have a right to an opinion - even if y’all are wrong

 

[Skyhawk]

The A-2, M422, G-1, A-1 and presumably the 37J1 jackets were all chrome tanned so if you looking for 100% authenticity, you can stop at vegie tanned. The A-2 hide spec is pretty thin at just around 2mm.

 

[Officer Dibley]

Sorry, i’m not sure what you are trying to say. Probably me being thick. I don’t think “all” A-2’s were chrome tanned though......

 

[Skyhawk]

The original specifications listed the hide to be used as chrome tanned. I have heard that some semi aniline was used as well but the majority of them were chrome tanned. As are all military leather flight jackets past and present.

 

[Smithy]

The first chrome tanned specification for military flying clothing actually dates to 1912 with the Royal Flying Corps' first pattern flying coat and matching leather trousers.

And Dave this is one of the major reasons that I'm always harping on about how even the high end repros are not facsimiles of the jackets they seek to copy. They are at best nice homages to them - ultimately far better constructed and in leather which is not the same as the originals.

 

[Juanito]

The original specifications listed the hide to be used as chrome tanned. I have heard that some semi aniline was used as well but the majority of them were chrome tanned. As are all military leather flight jackets past and present.

Forgive my ignorance but aniline is a finish, not a method of tanning, right? You can chrome or veg tan the leather itself, then apply an aniline, semi-aniline, or pigment finish, regardless of tanning method, correct?

For example, my Diamond Dave Cable was chrome tanned, but aniline finished, whereas my garden variety Eastman was veg tanned, but semi-aniline finished.

Ironically, the Avirex, Cooper, Lost Works, US Authentic, et al being chrome tanned and pigment finishe'd are a more accurate representation to an original than the "high end" veg tanned, aniline finished copies.

The thing that hasn't really been discussed is that regardless of the tanning method, the finishes today are vastly different mainly due to the restrictions on the chemicals used in the finishes.

 

[Brettafett]

Spot on Tim

 

[Skanstull]

I predict the next big thing in the repro flight jacket world to be chrome tanned, pigment finished hides.

 

[Officer Dibley]

The original specifications listed the hide to be used as chrome tanned. I have heard that some semi aniline was used as well but the majority of them were chrome tanned. As are all military leather flight jackets past and present.

So you agree with my point that veg tanning is a red herring when it comes to authenticity ?

 

[33-1729]

The A-2, M422, G-1, A-1 and presumably the 37J1 jackets were all chrome tanned so if you looking for 100% authenticity, you can stop at vegie tanned. The A-2 hide spec is pretty thin at just around 2mm.

During A-2 manufacture the horsehide/cowhide/goatskin thickness specification requiement was from 0.025” to 0.045” (0.635 to 1.143mm). I’m pretty certain many reproductions made today are thicker than the original thickness specification requirements.

 

[Skanstull]

During A-2 manufacture the horsehide/cowhide/goatskin thickness specification requiement was from 0.025” to 0.045” (0.635 to 1.143mm). I’m pretty certain many reproductions made today are thicker than the original thickness specification requirements.

The combination of different tannage (veg tan instead of chrome tan, where the former makes for a somewhat stiffer hide) and thicker hides are probably the two main factors why vintage flight jacket enthusiasts struggle to get the same soft, drapey look you often see in vintage photos.

 

[jeremiah]

Veg tanned and chrome tanned can be made to have the same hand (feel).
I have veg tanned that’s every bit as soft as some chrome tanned hides and some chrome tanned hides that are every bit as stiff as some veg tanned hides.

Welcome to VLJ.