My last A-2 (hopefully) - Good Wear

[Smithy]

I’d love to see the hide

id love to see an original hide. Mine is closer to a membrane then a hide.

I've handled one original before and they are substantially less robust feeling than a B-3 or for that matter an Irvin.

Like I said though, just right for keeping warm in a Lightning or such with minimal moving around rather than running around inside a B-17/24 with all its sharp metal edges

 

[Lord Flashheart]

Anyone know any nice goatskin A-2 contracts?
I've been really loving the grain on some of the GW goatskins we've been seeing.
I know the Dubow 27798 was one; but I already have Platon's.
The RW 18091 is another, but I can't really think of any others.
Advice from the A-2 guys would be great! Thanks!

I've got to admit the Perry goatskin A-2 contract has really drawn my attention and that's why I've got back in the queue.

Much as Smithy has said about contact my experience is that John's focus is on making great jackets and whilst I'm quite sure he'd love to chat about them all day that's his business he has to focus on. But in conversation about the detail when he needs that to sort out what you really need, as opposed to what you might think you want, I've always found him helpful, as knowledgeable as you'd hope, and good to deal with. The queue is what it is. Fine wine indeed.

 

[Micawber]

Judging by the amou t of period rigger and GI repairs on quite a few of the originals I have had through my hands over many years I would say that damage in service was very common. Remember only the better stuff was saved or good enough to hold up postwar.
Wartime issued flight clothing more often treated as work wear.

 

[Mr. Mike]

I got a response from John !

Well... that was fast.
He told me that my jacket would be ready to be built in about 1 month !

I also told him that I would like to order an A-2 and to orient me on contracts that would fit my body type (I am tall and thin).
He told me that he loved 4 contracts that were well suited for me, here are his words :

"For the A-2, I've got a lot of choices, but I have four favorite patterns, that just look so good when you put it on. They are...
- Rough Wear (I have taken patterns from the 16159, 18091, 1401-P, and 27752)....they're all so cool! The 27752 is my favorite
- Dubow 20960: this one looks wonderful, and I like this collar a lot more than the 27798
- Werber Sportswear: any of them...all four that I make look great worn
- Aero 16160: this contract is a bit oddly not like the earlier nor later versions, and I just love how it looks."

So I will think about it...
But for now the priority is the B-6.
So I'm at the point where I'm going to give John the details of what I'd like to do to narrow down my choice.


B-6 CONTRACT CHOICE :

John is proposing two contracts for the B-6 : the Arnoff and the Aero Leather (Acme). First and foremost I want a historically accurate jacket. The Aero leather is nice because it is very representative of the B-6, it is by far the most common if I'm not mistaken. But it bothers me a little that it says "Acme" on the label. Also, John mentioned in an email that the Arnoff contract was his favorite, and I feel like trusting him. So my choice will be the Arnoff contract.


SHEEPSKIN CHOICE :

John showed me a lot of sheepskins. It's a tough choice.
I'll try to sum up my thoughts as best I can :

What I like / would like :

• an historically credible sheepskin for an Arnoff contract
• a sheepskin with a lot of character (grain, wrinkles, ...), something quite heterogeneous.
• a sheepskin with slight nuances of color (slight nuances of tone)
• a nice ivory colored fur (slightly dark ? is it credible for a B-6 jacket ?).

What I don't like :

• sheepskin is too shiny
• very smooth / homogeneous sheepskin
• furs that are too white

Here are some sheepskins that John showed me (click on the pictures to enlarge them) :

1 : An American tannery, their fur color is a bit yellow, which is true to some of the originals, but a bit too flashy. This is not wrong, however.

2 : A huge tannery in China that offers a lot of colors and superb skins.

3 : The same Chinese tannery

4 : Another American tannery. John is going to do some testing to bring out the grain on this sheepskin. According to him it is an incredibly comfortable hide.

5 :

6 : Still an American tannery. A magnificent skin according to John and extremely comfortable

John mentioned that he dyes the sheepskin himself and can do just about any shade of color or sheen.

Well, you can see that the choice is difficult.

One last option: the artificial aging that John suggests. It's an art that he masters perfectly (much better than the other jacket makers according to me). It's a choice that I didn't totally put aside... here are some pictures :

View attachment 84364 View attachment 84365

I'd be happy to hear your thoughts and opinions about this

Thanks a lot for sharing Kermit - that is really cool and I feel with you facing a challenging choice. However, as mentioned various times already you won't be disappointed by now means. You can't do anything wrong now. You will only be feeling a little sad that you can't go for all other options in parallel

For a B-6 I would also favor #6, the supple shearling from the American tannery. I opted for that one for my B-3 as well as for thicker hides suppleness becomes even more important. The Chinese hides look excellent for sure but as Jan already mentioned just looking at how the B-6 drapes with the American hide is simply cool and I also could imagine it would not work the same with the slightly stiffer Chinese hide.
Artificial aging is surely a matter of taste. I do not have asked John yet to apply it but the idea of a combat clone order still lingers around in my mind for quite some time now (...). In principle I second the view a jacket should gain its own personal aging - however, in case you have a larger collection it becomes hard to wear each one often enough to ever get to a 25 or 50 mission state . When discussing the aging option with John re my B-3 he also mentioned that the artificial aging better works on the horsehide (sleeve enforcements) and not that strongly on the shearling but you should doublecheck with John once your hide-selection is settled. Long story short - if you will wear your B-6 day in day out you should better skip the artificial aging.

Regarding your A-2 selection you can again not do anything wrong here. As mentioned by many others already John is the undefeated master of Rough Wears. So if you want to have a real GoodWear then the RW might be the best choice as it could easily turn out to be your holy grail at first shot. I personally like the Werber and the Dubow as (in particular the latter one) has a very athletic design.

Lastly, John is just an exceptionally outstanding guy who always delivers to his promises. Here you would never be disappointed. I would not be surprised if he'd put you in the queue with the B-6 on purpose to get it delivered right in time for your winter time


Here is my B-3 with the hide from the American tannery as additional decision help

 

[Kermit3D]

I got a response from John !

Well... that was fast.

I misspoke, I didn't mean to be ironic by implying that I waited a long time for an answer. I wanted to point out that the answer arrived the day after my email and it was rather unexpected. It was really fast !

Super cool, Kermit. I'm glad the jacket's so close to being made! Should arrive just in time for winter! In terms of which shearling, I'm a fan of 2/3 and 6. John has mentioned to me that the Chinese stuff is a little bit stiffer than the American stuff (which is very pliable), but I'm not sure what that would mean in terms of comfort. I must say, I really like the way #6 drapes. As for the artificial aging, I'd opt against it (although it turned out very well in the photos), but I pretty much always avoid that kind of thing.

What's your current thinking on A-2 contracts?

Yeah that's great! I love that moment when a long time project comes to fruition with the final options.

I purposely didn't mention my preferences to get your opinions without influencing you... but right from the start I had a crush on sheepskin #6. I love the color shades of #3 but I'm not sure if it would work well for a B-6. Also the Chinese sheepskins look drier, more brittle.
I will ask John for some detailed pictures of #6 but I think it will be my choice.
Just a note: John did tell me that in photo #6, the jacket is too big for him, so don't take into account the slightly wide fit.

Regarding the A-2 contracts, I'm not focusing on them right now, I'm waiting to receive the B-6 and probably will take a ticket for the queue right after.
But from what I can read (Mr. Mike and other forum members), John is the king of Rough Wear. It's a contract I really like and is very different from my Dubow... So I think I'll go with that. 16159, 18091, 1401-P, 27752? my choice is not made. But John recommends the 27752, so there must be a good reason for that.

I have a B-6, B-3, M-444A, and M-445B from John. The B-6 is about ten years old and has a stiffer sheepskin with a surface texture that is almost crispy like nori. The other jackets are from the last couple years and have much more supple hides. I tend to wear the two Navy jackets the most because the sheepskin is not too thick and I can move freely. (And the B-6 would have hides about the thickness of the Navy jackets.) My personal preference is definitely for supple!

Thank you for these valuable tips... I didn't really realize it (I have no experience with sheepskin), but the softness of the sheepskin seems to be a very important element.

Boycott the Chinese hides!

Yeah, let's say that the current context encourages me to go in this direction. It's a good thing, my choice will certainly be an American sheepskin.

Thanks a lot for sharing Kermit - that is really cool and I feel with you facing a challenging choice. However, as mentioned various times already you won't be disappointed by now means. You can't do anything wrong now. You will only be feeling a little sad that you can't go for all other options in parallel

For a B-6 I would also favor #6, the supple shearling from the American tannery. I opted for that one for my B-3 as well as for thicker hides suppleness becomes even more important. The Chinese hides look excellent for sure but as Jan already mentioned just looking at how the B-6 drapes with the American hide is simply cool and I also could imagine it would not work the same with the slightly stiffer Chinese hide.
Artificial aging is surely a matter of taste. I do not have asked John yet to apply it but the idea of a combat clone order still lingers around in my mind for quite some time now (...). In principle I second the view a jacket should gain its own personal aging - however, in case you have a larger collection it becomes hard to wear each one often enough to ever get to a 25 or 50 mission state . When discussing the aging option with John re my B-3 he also mentioned that the artificial aging better works on the horsehide (sleeve enforcements) and not that strongly on the shearling but you should doublecheck with John once your hide-selection is settled. Long story short - if you will wear your B-6 day in day out you should better skip the artificial aging.

Regarding your A-2 selection you can again not do anything wrong here. As mentioned by many other already John is the undefeated master of Rough Wears. So if you want to have a real GoodWear then the RW might be the best choice as it could easily turn out to be your holy grail at first shot. I personally like the Werber and the Dubow as (in particular the latter one) has a very athletic design.

Lastly, John is just an exceptionally outstanding guy who always delivers to his promises. Here you would never be disappointed. I would not be surprised if he'd put you in the queue with the B-6 on purpose to get it delivered right in time for your winter time


Here is my B-3 with the hide from the American tannery as additional decision help

View attachment 84389

Thank you very much for your very complete message Mr. Mike. It helps me a lot in my choices. It goes in the direction of what I had in mind and that's a good thing, I'm reassured.
Your B-3 is an absolute beauty... the color shades are incredible. It's an American sheepskin, right ? I also love the ivory color of the fur.

Regarding artificial aging, I think John has developed an excellent process that he has mastered. But as you say, it's probably more interesting on a horse skin or a goat skin. I'm not going to risk it on a sheepskin.
Eventually, as Mulceber suggested, I may just ask John to leave some imperfections in the seams to simulate the rapid construction in wartime (it's crazy to get to that point when you think about it... )

Also, thanks for the tips on the A-2s, the Rough Wear that John makes seems to be a keeper !
... and I agree. John seems like an exceptional guy. It's always a great pleasure to read his emails. He is never stingy with details both historical and technical. You can feel a great passion in the way he expresses himself.

 

[Smithy]

Judging by the amou t of period rigger and GI repairs on quite a few of the originals I have had through my hands over many years I would say that damage in service was very common. Remember only the better stuff was saved or good enough to hold up postwar.
Wartime issued flight clothing more often treated as work wear.

Bang on Steve. I think it's sometimes forgotten that these things were just tools to do a job. We have a tendency to fetishise them now but at the time a flying jacket was exactly the same as a GI's M41 or a German infantryman's Zeltbahn. It was merely a piece of workwear to do a job.

 

[mulceber]

Regarding the exchange between @Smithy and @Pa12 (I would have just quoted it, but inserting quotes doesn’t seem to be working for me right now) about the durability of shearling, it may be the case that Eastman used slightly flimsier shearling than they used back then, but as Tim said, the originals really weren’t all that durable either. This can be seen in the contract data: with A-2 jackets, the AAF was basically done mid-way through ‘42. Yes, they had 3 contracts in ‘43, but those were just to re-stock the smaller sizes. They apparently filled out the stock of A-2 jackets that they needed quickly.

But shearling? In 1943 they had 9 contracts for B-3 jackets, 3 for B-6s (a jacket type everyone agrees were made in comparatively small quantities) and 4 AN-J-4 contracts (including one in 1944). All this was apparently happening as the AAF was trying to transition away from animal hide jackets. The overwhelming impression is that as the war ramped up, the AAF was desperate for cold weather flight clothing, and it’s probably because a lot of it got damaged and had to be thrown out.

 

[Pa12]

Yes. And also, I was under the impression that b-3 and b-6 hides( skin) were the same and only the thickness or depth of the pile or fur was different.

 

[mulceber]

That’s my impression as well, but I could be wrong.

 

[Smithy]

Regarding the exchange between @Smithy and @Pa12 (I would have just quoted it, but inserting quotes doesn’t seem to be working for me right now) about the durability of shearling, it may be the case that Eastman used slightly flimsier shearling than they used back then, but as Tim said, the originals really weren’t all that durable either. This can be seen in the contract data: with A-2 jackets, the AAF was basically done mid-way through ‘42. Yes, they had 3 contracts in ‘43, but those were just to re-stock the smaller sizes. They apparently filled out the stock of A-2 jackets that they needed quickly.

But shearling? In 1943 they had 9 contracts for B-3 jackets, 3 for B-6s (a jacket type everyone agrees were made in comparatively small quantities) and 4 AN-J-4 contracts (including one in 1944). All this was apparently happening as the AAF was trying to transition away from animal hide jackets. The overwhelming impression is that as the war ramped up, the AAF was desperate for cold weather flight clothing, and it’s probably because a lot of it got damaged and had to be thrown out.

Also Jan it's very important to remember that on a heavy bomber like a B-17 or B-24, the outer layer, ie the shearling layer, was NOT the most important thing regarding aircrew warmth. The primary system to keep crew outside of the cockpit section warm was the aircraft's heating system which gunners, etc were plugged into with for example an F-1. One of the major reasons a bomber would drop out of formation and descend to a lower altitude was due to the heating system to a certain part of the aircraft being knocked out and necessary to avoid frostbite to the affected airman/men, regardless of being rugged up in a B-3 and matching A-3 trousers for example. It was the electrical heat system which really saved airmen from freezing. B-3s and the like helped but the most important was the electrical heating system.

 

[Pa12]

That’s my impression as well, but I could be wrong.

If true, my b-6 wouldn’t last one mission. No shit, it’s thin.

 

[Smithy]

If true, my b-6 wouldn’t last one mission. No shit, it’s thin.

This was the major reason why the ANJ-4 for example had HH added in an attempt to strengthen the shearling in areas.

All shearling is obviously inferior in terms of wear to HH or goat.

Shearlings look great but if we're honest they're far from ideal for what was needed - warmth but also a very hardwearing outer surface that could take being scraped, scuffed and knocked around inside a bomber. Plus they also weigh a ton.

Like I said they look great but not perfect.

 

[entertainment]

But whatever the needs of flying at 15,000 feet, I just want to say that a shearling jacket is a very warm jacket for regular use. I find my 1/4" thick jackets as warm or warmer than my Patagonia down jacket.

I also recall something JC once wrote to me. He said that the standard shearling skins from one of his US suppliers were relatively stiff. That supplier only told him in the last few years that degree of suppleness/stiffness could be controlled in the tanning process. Hence the current availability of more supple (and comfortable) hides.

 

[Micawber]

Due to the way it was produced and finished a lot of USAAF shearling was more prone to wear, damage and rot compared to the RAF & Commonwealth airforces equivalent. The actual skin layer is often surprisingly thin, worn and bald areas on original stuff often feels like vellum of chammy leather.

As an aside the original B-6 & D-1 I've had have had usually struck me as being a bit mediocre.

 

[Smithy]

But whatever the needs of flying at 15,000 feet, I just want to say that a shearling jacket is a very warm jacket for regular use. I find my 1/4" thick jackets as warm or warmer than my Patagonia down jacket.

I also recall something JC once wrote to me. He said that the standard shearling skins from one of his US suppliers were relatively stiff. That supplier only told him in the last few years that degree of suppleness/stiffness could be controlled in the tanning process. Hence the current availability of more supple (and comfortable) hides.

They're warm but if we're completely honest they're utterly hopeless in terms of functionality compared to other things. If they get wet they weigh a ton, even more than when dry and they take an age to dry out.

I live 200 miles inside the Arctic Circle. We have a cabin up in the mountains (over 430 metres above sea level) so it gets cold, seriously cold. I would NEVER pick wearing a sheepskin flying jacket over a parka up there. From WWII, a German winter parka with Reizwolle is a far better pick than a shearling flight jacket.

There's a romance about shearling flight jackets obviously but if we're brutally honest they are actually more than a bit shit compared to other options.

 

[Spitfireace]

Regarding the exchange between @Smithy and @Pa12 (I would have just quoted it, but inserting quotes doesn’t seem to be working for me right now) about the durability of shearling, it may be the case that Eastman used slightly flimsier shearling than they used back then, but as Tim said, the originals really weren’t all that durable either. This can be seen in the contract data: with A-2 jackets, the AAF was basically done mid-way through ‘42. Yes, they had 3 contracts in ‘43, but those were just to re-stock the smaller sizes. They apparently filled out the stock of A-2 jackets that they needed quickly.

But shearling? In 1943 they had 9 contracts for B-3 jackets, 3 for B-6s (a jacket type everyone agrees were made in comparatively small quantities) and 4 AN-J-4 contracts (including one in 1944). All this was apparently happening as the AAF was trying to transition away from animal hide jackets. The overwhelming impression is that as the war ramped up, the AAF was desperate for cold weather flight clothing, and it’s probably because a lot of it got damaged and had to be thrown out.

Therefore B10 and B15 became more cost effective. Easier to supply materials.

 

[CBI]

great looking stuff - way too much info to even comment! if aging is done well, I like it since (for people who own many jackets) its impossible to develop the wear - just too many jacket in rotation.

 

[Spitfireace]

The Hot Water Technique

 

[Spitfireace]

They're warm but if we're completely honest they're utterly hopeless in terms of functionality compared to other things. If they get wet they weigh a ton, even more than when dry and they take an age to dry out.

I live 200 miles inside the Arctic Circle. We have a cabin up in the mountains (over 430 metres above sea level) so it gets cold, seriously cold. I would NEVER pick wearing a sheepskin flying jacket over a parka up there. From WWII, a German winter parka with Reizwolle is a far better pick than a shearling flight jacket.

There's a romance about shearling flight jackets obviously but if we're brutally honest they are actually more than a bit shit compared to other options.

Sir Edmund didn't wear sheepskin going up Everest. He wore down filled nylon jacket. Cutting edge of technology then and still the lightest weight warmest option.

 

[Pa12]

Like everything, they’ve come a long way. If I have anything serious to do outside I wear my gortex insulated coveralls that I wore at work on the ramp. When it comes to keeping warm you can’t beat a oncey