ELC New Repro Talon

[269sqnhudson]

Here we go, more Eastman-bashing It's not 'fraud' unless they say it's a NOS Talon... it actually says "authentic WW2 style" that to me is not at all misleading..there was never going to be an unlimited supply of NOS WW2 zips of any kind and it has nothing to do with BR having them or not, Eastman are just their European agent.

I'm going to make the same point to you too. I am a fan of Eastman, always have been. I have owned over a dozen of their jackets and they know me well when I frequently call up for advice so please don't start accusing me of pointless brand-bashing. I am pointing out the fact, quite validly, that they are no longer using NOS zips and being that the picture on the Star A2 IS an NOS zip, some people may be disappointed to know they are not using them. Furthermore, the shape of repro Talons has been a point of note since the 90s and here's a new repro, why not dicuss it?

I really hope I don't have to make this point again.

 

[havocpaul]

It's fine to discuss it, my issue is with words like "fraud" being thrown around, and I stand by my point that there is recently too much crticism that goes beyond fair or just, and hopefully I don't need to say it again either!

 

[John Lever]

I think we are all getting over sensitized on this issue and it may be time to step back and take a deep breath.
For one I have decided not to post in any threads that develop into mud slinging or perceived bashing.
It's boring and it makes me boring and others boring.

 

[269sqnhudson]

I think we are all getting over sensitized on this issue and it may be time to step back and take a deep breath.
For one I have decided not to post in any threads that develop into mud slinging or perceived bashing.
It's boring and it makes me boring and others boring.

Fair point. The purpose of the forum is to discuss jacket details, not sure how to start any thread about details if not in the way I tried to :?

 

[ButteMT61]

It's fine to discuss it, my issue is with words like "fraud" being thrown around, and I stand by my point that there is recently too much crticism that goes beyond fair or just, and hopefully I don't need to say it again either!

If a company has used a NOS zip for years, and still shows them in pics to sell a jacket without announcing the zip YOU will get is NOT a NOS zip, it is fraud. Pretty simple. If the above is not true - I'm honestly not sure after reading all the pages - then it's fine as is.
One thing I will say - when Aero and Kelso take a hit, at least they post on the forums explaining things. It may not satisfy any, many, or all of the readers, but they at least do it. Why don't ELC come here to set things straight? Why do "customers" have to do it for them? That's what keeps the questions coming if I have 2¢ worth of say.

 

[havocpaul]

Me too, John, really no point as it just gets sooo tedious with the same old comments and I don't need to keep adding to it all. Time to take a rain-check on it all and let things hopefully settle down, we've been in similar waters before as I recall.

 

[Vcruiser]

We've had several customer inquiries and ELC email responses posted here about various things. Several with explanations that have left much to be desired for some of the members here. A one response ELC customer email is much easier than entering a live discussion on a forum thread. Believe me..it might be better that way.
I remember an old 'deja vu' forum where jacket companies posted responses that most often battled in a clash of egos resulting in complete chaos. Customers taking sides..with a *blank company* can do no wrong attitude..in spades. Some jacket reps even leading the charge. Finally it was closed down except for a select few agree-ers...then completely dissolved.
There are valid reasons why most jacket makers/reps now mainly avoid the forums...unless a major crisis ensues. It's often/usually a no win proposition.

Van

 

[ButteMT61]

Let me ask the ELC (people that like them and defend them) fans this. Since I've been here, there have been questions regarding:

"Mustang" hides.
Red Tails claims.
VAT questions.
Zipper changes.

Those are the ones I recall. As one that has never bought an ELC product, I read this stuff and wonder what's up with them. The forums let people discuss these. Would any sane person not question the company's policies with all that in mind? I don't "like" or "dislike" the company. I do have questions though. Why do you think people would be skeptical with those sorts of questions being asked? I like Aero and Good Wear based on my transactions, emails, and the quality of the product. If any of the above were brought up about them, I'd want to know what's up just the same.

When Aero USA took a dump, I was dumbfounded as I had no such experiences with Mark. It took a lot of evidence to finally show me that indeed, it was over and bad things had happened. I didn't like some of the answers Aero (Scotland) put forth, but they at least posted. I'm sure it's a coin-toss as to whether it's worth trying, but I will always take an effort over "no reply".
Lots of people lost a lot on that deal. And Aero had an uphill battle to fix things. Any maker should be able to explain questions that leave customers or potential customers wondering... All the threats to leave here over posts sounds like school kids. You can read, ignore, reply or leave. But if you're gonna leave, just do it, or start your own forum.

 

[Vcruiser]

...because there are always those who can't/don't want to see or hear about any presumed problem(especially if there have been several). Nothing can be resolved because it is always only trivial...or doesn't really matter to anything. Just trouble makers bringing something up and harping on it. Non existant. Only mis communication. Misread. Misunderstanding. So..move along...

 

[ButteMT61]

...So..move along...

Will do. Whooosh...

 

[269sqnhudson]

Just trouble makers bringing something up and harping on it. Non existant. Only mis communication. Misread. Misunderstanding. So..move along...

Just look at my earlier posts please. I like Eastman, I brought it up as an interesting point worth discussing. I'm not a trouble-maker.

 

[269sqnhudson]

Right I'm going to talk about the zips. I have every right to talk about the zips. I'm an Eastman customer and can discuss Eastman zips....if anyone's still interested :roll: I refuse to let my thread get stopped/ignored because a few members perceive this criticism to be Eastman-bashing. If you don't like the critique just go somewhere else.

Back to business:
The new repro talon seems to address the issue of the over-curved slider shape that has persisted since I started buying A2 repros in 1996. Eastman used them and McCoys used them for years
However ...it does seem a bit flat. Someone mentioned earlier on it might be 'cast' and this would make sense. It definitely looks different to the originals.
I personally preferred the older ones, any opinions?

Tom

 

[colekwok]

I second you on that, 269sqnhudson.

Honestly, I really don't want to get involved in this heated discussion, but I am always on the consumer side.
So if I get anything less for the money I pay, I would be concerned. Enough said.

 

[ausreenactor]

Some think we need 'closure' on the zipper issue? That is what the latest posts are 'talon' me.
Just havin' a 'puller' your leg! Okay, I'll 'slider' back into my hole now before I get marked as
something I am not, let alone 'triple marked'....

Couchy

 

[269sqnhudson]

I really do wish people would stop posting to say they aren't going to post, or how the thread has gone one way or the other, I just wanted some input on the sodding zips :shock:
I guarantee someone will post another thread about the new zips at some point in the future. We could have had a good discussion here but we failed. Well done!

 

[Otter]

John, have you seen any of the ELC Hookless zips, what are they like?

 

[269sqnhudson]

John, have you seen any of the ELC Hookless zips, what are they like?

Wow, thank you an actual Eastman zip-related posting. (sorry, I'll let John chime in, I've never seen one)

 

[ausreenactor]

I just wanted some input on the sodding zips :shock:
I guarantee someone will post another thread about the new zips at some point in the future.

I trust you started with ELC directly first? I took a look and did not sight anything in the posts.

There are around four pages of the usual banter, and two directly related to the zipper issue. I think many/most here are smart enough to have clicked on the ELC site and taken a look for themselves and they are enlightened. I thank you for highlighting it. Given that few here buy new ELC A-2s anymore I do not think it would impact 'us' too heavily. Those poor 'punters' living in the shadows outside the VLJ Forum are surely not privy to it...unless they are blissfully unaware at their preference. Like you, I have many ELC items and I do not own a Good Wear. I prefer to buy second hand and get the pics to look at now. No surprises that way. Unless the sizes have been misrepresented. It is expected that you are bound to draw some 'heat' if you highlight an error in anything that some hold dear.

You have aided the members here with your observation and thanks once again.

Couchy

 

[John Lever]

I have had a few of Anj-4's and B-3's from Eastman in the past 15 to 2 years, all had repro Talons. I think my RW A-2 may have had a wartime or original type zip not sure.
I think several if not all the pics on the website are months if not years out of date and if ordering ask for a leather sample first. Some of the new materials are very much better than those shown so Gary is shooting himself in the foot by not keeping the site up to date.
I have a couple of quite old jackets and the zips are quite rudimentary copies to my inexpert eye and the pullers like thy were stamped out and brass plated, they all work fine. The only time I have an issue with zips is with the dreaded Crown, I wish he would give us a choice.

 

[269sqnhudson]

I have had a few of Anj-4's and B-3's from Eastman in the past 15 to 2 years, all had repro Talons. I think my RW A-2 may have had a wartime or original type zip not sure.
I think several if not all the pics on the website are months if not years out of date and if ordering ask for a leather sample first. Some of the new materials are very much better than those shown so Gary is shooting himself in the foot by not keeping the site up to date.
I have a couple of quite old jackets and the zips are quite rudimentary copies to my inexpert eye and the pullers like thy were stamped out and brass plated, they all work fine. The only time I have an issue with zips is with the dreaded Crown, I wish he would give us a choice.

You mention the crown zips, their perceived weakness has put me off a Roughwear 1401 for a while (I have an older one with an NOS Talon though). Is it that they are difficult to operate or more a strength issue?
(I quite like the look of the '42 version on the 50 cal A2, it has white thread reinforcement on the zip-tape)