-
When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Do you consider an A-2 w/handwarmers to be a "real" A-2?
- Thread starter blueoakleyz
- Start date
Steve27752
Well-Known Member
No I do not consider it a `real` A2.
blueoakleyz
New Member
Jaydee said:
well it's just a name for them but I like to use the pockets just to stuff my hands in..
Peter Graham
Well-Known Member
An A-2 with handwarmer pockets just ruins the look of the jacket. It was not designed with them. Check the name of the forum. If you are interested in this subject you will understand why A-2's did not have handwarmer pockets, unless you live in Spain !
blueoakleyz said:
Key features of a military-specification jacket (as opposed to a civilian version) are one-piece back (some knock-off jackets have a seam across the shoulder blades; this seam causes discomfort during long flights in a confined position) and lack of side-entry hand-warmer pockets under the large snap-down patch pockets (apparently, the military designers did not want their pilots to be seen standing around with their hands in their pockets and believed that a lack of hand-warmer pockets would force pilots to be more productive and appear more professional) and no interior pocket.
Cooper A-2 jacket - Wikipedia.
Atticus
Well-Known Member
Its 1940 and two seasoned old Air Corps pilots are grumbling in the chow line.....
Old Codger #1: Yo Jimmy, have you seen those new A-2s that jus' come out? Do they look lame or what?
Old Codger #2: Ya ain't shittin', Hap. Those new jackets got no silk lining---got some kinda flimsy-assed cotton shit, instead. And slow yo' roll, them dam things ain't even got collar stands---look skank as hell.
Old Codger #1: That shit the Air Corps is dollin' now---that ain't no A-2. Ain't no real one, anyhow.
Old Codger #2: Word up, Bro.
Old Codger #1: Yo Jimmy, have you seen those new A-2s that jus' come out? Do they look lame or what?
Old Codger #2: Ya ain't shittin', Hap. Those new jackets got no silk lining---got some kinda flimsy-assed cotton shit, instead. And slow yo' roll, them dam things ain't even got collar stands---look skank as hell.
Old Codger #1: That shit the Air Corps is dollin' now---that ain't no A-2. Ain't no real one, anyhow.
Old Codger #2: Word up, Bro.
tgd31968
Member
[quote="[/quote]
Anything made after 1944 isn't a "real" A-2, period. They're either reproductions or modern military jackets carrying the same spec number. ~Swing[/quote]
I consider this to be kind of a silly discussion. Get them with or without handwarmer pockets, whatever suits you. Handwarmer pockets don't necessarily make them "mall trash" as there are some very good makers that produce hand warmer pocket versions.. It just makes them non-WWII issue. I prefer them without handwarmers, but if you like them, get them. Who cares?
Now, on a seperate issue, the current issue A-2 jackets in use by the USAF have handwarmer pockets. They are still an A-2, because after all, the USAAF/USAF specified the jackets, and can call them whatever they want, pureist's emotions not withstanding. So, if they USAF calles the current leather jacket A-2, it IS and A-2. What else would it be?
It is like saying a 1967 Mustang is the ONLY mustang, and a 2002 mustang is not really a mustang. Well, if Ford calles it a mustang, and they designed the thing, what else is it to be called?
It would be more correct to say that original issue A-2's do not have handwarmer pockets, so a version with handwarmer pockets is NOT an original issue A-2. HOWEVER, the versions with handwarmer pockets would be a current issue A-2.
It is really no different than the design changes in B-15's, MA-1's etc. Each went through modifications, and yet they still are b-15's, MA-1's albiet in some cases with different letter designations. But, no one accuses them of not being "real".
Had the USAF not introduced a current issue with handwarmer pockets, I would agree. Since they have, I have to say that they are both A-2s, one original issue, and one current issue.
Anything made after 1944 isn't a "real" A-2, period. They're either reproductions or modern military jackets carrying the same spec number. ~Swing[/quote]
I consider this to be kind of a silly discussion. Get them with or without handwarmer pockets, whatever suits you. Handwarmer pockets don't necessarily make them "mall trash" as there are some very good makers that produce hand warmer pocket versions.. It just makes them non-WWII issue. I prefer them without handwarmers, but if you like them, get them. Who cares?
Now, on a seperate issue, the current issue A-2 jackets in use by the USAF have handwarmer pockets. They are still an A-2, because after all, the USAAF/USAF specified the jackets, and can call them whatever they want, pureist's emotions not withstanding. So, if they USAF calles the current leather jacket A-2, it IS and A-2. What else would it be?
It is like saying a 1967 Mustang is the ONLY mustang, and a 2002 mustang is not really a mustang. Well, if Ford calles it a mustang, and they designed the thing, what else is it to be called?
It would be more correct to say that original issue A-2's do not have handwarmer pockets, so a version with handwarmer pockets is NOT an original issue A-2. HOWEVER, the versions with handwarmer pockets would be a current issue A-2.
It is really no different than the design changes in B-15's, MA-1's etc. Each went through modifications, and yet they still are b-15's, MA-1's albiet in some cases with different letter designations. But, no one accuses them of not being "real".
Had the USAF not introduced a current issue with handwarmer pockets, I would agree. Since they have, I have to say that they are both A-2s, one original issue, and one current issue.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I'm still stunned that the current USAF not only makes the aircrew buy the damn jacket, but allows them to shove their hands in the sides of the pockets to keep them warm. What is the world coming to ? No wonder we can't win the 'War on Terror' !! 
Dave :ugeek:
Dave :ugeek:
tgd31968
Member
JACKET_ HEAD said:I'm still stunned that the current USAF not only makes the aircrew buy the damn jacket, but allows them to shove their hands in the sides of the pockets to keep them warm. What is the world coming to ? No wonder we can't win the 'War on Terror' !!
Dave :ugeek:
Another good point. I have done no research, so maybe there is an OFFICIAL Airforce regulation on it, but I have always figured that the whole argument about not having hand warmer pockets on the A-2 and B-3 because of military appearance was hogwash. Some BS to market the jackets because modern buyers might not be happy about not having convienent pockets. If you give the lack of pockets some BS historical reason, people would buy it.
I worked in the steel industry for several years, and the jackets we wore around hot metal had no external pockets. THus to avoid catching sparks in them, and avoid catching on moving equipment. That was a stated reason.
I can see a similar logic in aircraft of the era. The A-2 probably had the pockets covered by flaps to avoid anything falling into them. Since the B-3 was modeled on the IRVN, which had no pockets, so they probably followed the same design, but then decided that having SOMETHING to put stuff in was handy and threw it on as an afterthough. It certainly looks like an add on and not something designed into the jacket.
Furthermore, if handwarmer pocket were so evil, why are they on the tanker, the b-6, and D-1 jackets?
I could be wrong, and frequently am, but unless I see a period USAAF document explicity stating that the design of the jackets did not include handwarmer pockets because of appearance, I will still chalk it up to modern marketing.
Terry
Falcon_52
Active Member
I think that if the Air Force wanted to issue an updated A-2 with hand warmer pockets, they should have created a new jacket specification or at the very least a new drawing number. In my opinion, a manufacturer cannot put "DWG NO. 30-1415" in the label of an "A-2" jacket that has additional pockets from the factory; it no longer conforms to that drawing number.
Sorry for going all engineer on everybody... :ugeek:
Noel
Sorry for going all engineer on everybody... :ugeek:
Noel
zoomer
Well-Known Member
I certainly don't consider it a milspec A-2. AIUI, aircrew typically get them without warmers, then have them modified if they want them. It can be done pretty unobtrusively: you don't have to have big besomed slots in the sides the way readymade ones do. They just remove the pockets, sew in a cloth liner, and reinstall with the outboard edge left open and reinforced with stitching.
OTOH, whatever whistles and bells you want on a civilian A-2 is your business. It really is just a style: epaulets, patch-flap pockets, knit waist and cuffs, plain back, fold-over collar. I don't like the closer-together look that you need if you want to put hands in the pockets, tho. It throws off the lines of the jacket too much.
OTOH, whatever whistles and bells you want on a civilian A-2 is your business. It really is just a style: epaulets, patch-flap pockets, knit waist and cuffs, plain back, fold-over collar. I don't like the closer-together look that you need if you want to put hands in the pockets, tho. It throws off the lines of the jacket too much.
Maybe you should rephrase your question:
Do you consider an WW-2 period A-2 w/handwarmers to be a "real" A-2 ?
Then my answer would be NO, and Falcon_52 has a real good point about the drawing number, that's the
key to this discussion, too bad there no original designs/drawings/documents on the TYPE A-2 jacket. That
would solve this question for once and for all
Do you consider an WW-2 period A-2 w/handwarmers to be a "real" A-2 ?
Then my answer would be NO, and Falcon_52 has a real good point about the drawing number, that's the
key to this discussion, too bad there no original designs/drawings/documents on the TYPE A-2 jacket. That
would solve this question for once and for all
<My thoughts entirely. simply stated, original spec a2's did not have handwarmers and so any jacket that features them is not an a2 because it is not true to spec. modern ones are a different matter but are not vintage jackets or facsimiles thereof, are they?
we can go around in circles with this all week.
we can go around in circles with this all week.
