"the great escape" kit

[rich]

All but two of the escapees were later shot on the personal orders of Hitler. I think two, surnamed Churchill and Nelson were spared.

76 escaped the camp, fifty were shot, usually in ones and twos. They were supposedly offered the chance to pee before taking a long car journey and then shot from behind. The man who shot Roger Bushell was hung after the war for committing this murder.

 

[asiamiles]

There's apparently a couple of good books about the escape - and one just about life in the camp which is maybe a little less exciting! - which I keep getting tempted to order each time I see the film. Currently though I'm reading one about its director.

 

[capt71]

Deleted

 

[Anonymous]

If you want a good movie about British POW's then watch the old black and white "The Wooden Horse" or "The Colditz Story". Fantastic !!

Whilst it was a bit overly dramatic, "Stalag 17" had very evocative scenes and has been said before, great jacket shots. Although I wonder how many Germans would have let flyboys keep their leather jackets ??

There are certainly a huge volume of long out of print Escape books (mostly British written that I've seen) that are well worth a look.

John, you might want to read "The Great Escape" if you are going to quote from it. Always best to get your facts right
It's a suprisingly good read.

There was also a series on recently interviewing Colditz verts, some of whom were at Stalag Luft III. Characters all of them. I believe tha last one died earlier this year. They even did a reconstruction of the glider that had been made that sat in the roof space at Colditz and it flew brilliantly.

They didn't call that generation "The Greatest Generation" for nowt.

J_H

 

[John Lever]

John, you might want to read "The Great Escape" if you are going to quote from it. Always best to get your facts right
It's a suprisingly good read.
I wasn't quoting anything, just pointing out the nationalities of people who escaped and were later shot.

 

[jacketimp]

All but two of the escapees were later shot on the personal orders of Hitler. I think two, surnamed Churchill and Nelson were spared.

76 escaped the camp, fifty were shot, usually in ones and twos. They were supposedly offered the chance to pee before taking a long car journey and then shot from behind. The man who shot Roger Bushell was hung after the war for committing this murder.

76-50= 26
2+24=26

both can't be right........paradox/oxymoron?

 

[rich]

Like this Imp........

76 escaped from the camp, 50 were shot, 3 made it back home, so 23 were returned into captivity. No guesswork involved


Many more would have got out too if the tunnel hadn't been discovered - I think they were hoping to get 200+ out? God knows what would have happened then ........ these men were 'fortunate' to be interned by the Luftwaffe.

My favourite POW film is King Rat. And the best book - A Crowd is not Company by Robert Kee.

I'm with Bill on 'River Kwai', I think that must have been an enormous insult and source of disappointment to survivors.

 

[jacketimp]

Like this Imp........

76 escaped from the camp, 50 were shot, 3 made it back home, so 23 were returned into captivity. No guesswork involved


Many more would have got out too if the tunnel hadn't been discovered - I think they were hoping to get 200+ out? God knows what would have happened then ........ these men were 'fortunate' to be interned by the Luftwaffe.

My favourite POW film is King Rat. And the best book - A Crowd is not Company by Robert Kee.

I'm with Bill on 'River Kwai', I think that must have been an enormous insult and source of disappointment to survivors.

thx for reconciling em figures.

 

[handworn]

In fact some Americans remained with the Brits when most of them were moved to their own compound at Stalag Luft III, because they'd been in the RAF. George Harsh, who wrote the foreword to Brickhill's classic work, was the most notable example.

The big joke here is that the Great Escape was composed of a variety of troops from the UK and Commonwealth, also from Norway and Holland. Funny how we remember the fantasy of the film and not reality.

To be fair to the movie, Americans were involved in some of the early tunnel works as all allied aircrew officers were originally lumped in together. However, as the number of Yanks in captivity grew, they were put in their own camp. So they did contribute and some must've been initially gutted they weren't involved in the escape attempt but later relieved.

At least that's how Paul Brickill has it in the book.

Also worth noting is that Steve McQueen didn't wear the standard uniform of the period. As king of cool he had chinos of the slimmer 60's cut rather than the old baggy bottomed WW2 ones.

There are lots of inconsistancies between the movie and reality but it's still great entertainment. For greater accuracy and a more period feel, stick with the 50's black and white movies made much nearer the time and starring people who actually served in the war albeit it not necessarily in the actions they starred in.

J_H

 

[Anonymous]

This link to one of my earlier posts should shed some light on the character Virgil Hilts .he was a bomber pilot by the way and was involved in the dolittle raid .


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2630


All the best Jeff

 

[Andrew]

"The Great Escape" is easily my equal favourite (with the BoB) of all the old 1960's flicks, and without doubt the appeal for me is McQueen. It is an absolute treat to watch again and again and I don't have a problem with just enjoying a classic film warts and all. But it's important to distinguish (and possibly remind those who may be unaware) fact from fiction.

I spend time every couple of weeks with the fellow front row second from the left and he's amongst the last of the now few Stalag III inmates still kicking. He had a role in the organisation- he was a lookout (a Stooge), and wasn't drawn from the lottery to escape. He enjoyed the film for what it was and fully understands why it is like it is, but is understandably not completely happy with the way it's rewritten history to some extent. The Author of the original story (Paul Brickhill) was a friend of his and is front row third from the right. As with all things hearing actual accounts from an original source help you appreciate the significance.

The best book I've read on the subject of Escape is this one- "Escape from Germany" by Aidan Crawley, who was a former Prisoner.
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... 0117024597
It's full of amazing detail which was classified for many years (don't buy an old one as it's missing a lot of info) and compiled to possibly assist others if they found themselves in similar circumstances. If you are into escape sagas or info this is an absolute must read full of accounts a many escapes and techniques used.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Escape-Germany- ... 0117024597

 

[Chandler]

This link to one of my earlier posts should shed some light on the character Virgil Hilts .he was a bomber pilot by the way and was involved in the dolittle raid .

That's only one of the people whose history McQueen's character (and name) was taken from. Hard to say just what sort of pilot the movie character was supposed to be, but based on his attitude...

"Are all American officers so... ill-mannered?"

"'Bout 99%, yeah."

Chandler

 

[rich]

"The Great Escape" is easily my equal favourite (with the BoB) of all the old 1960's flicks, and without doubt the appeal for me is McQueen. It is an absolute treat to watch again and again and I don't have a problem with just enjoying a classic film warts and all. But it's important to distinguish (and possibly remind those who may be unaware) fact from fiction.

I spend time every couple of weeks with the fellow front row second from the left and he's amongst the last of the now few Stalag III inmates still kicking. He had a role in the organisation- he was a lookout (a Stooge), and wasn't drawn from the lottery to escape. He enjoyed the film for what it was and fully understands why it is like it is, but is understandably not completely happy with the way it's rewritten history to some extent. The Author of the original story (Paul Brickhill) was a friend of his and is front row third from the right. As with all things hearing actual accounts from an original source help you appreciate the significance.

To have this connection must be quite surreal, and if I may say, a rare privilege. It makes all those years ago not so far away after all.............. I hope he knows the high regard so many people have for his generation. Could we have done that?

 

[Anonymous]

To have this connection must be quite surreal, and if I may say, a rare privilege. It makes all those years ago not so far away after all.............. I hope he knows the high regard so many people have for his generation. Could we have done that?

The answer most simply put is no. Not because we are inferior to that generation. I'm sure their parents and grandparents thought that that greatest generation were young irresponsible pups.

however, because they were compelled to serve (through moral desire or a call-up letter) they bought with them a whole range of careers and skill sets that turned out to be valuable. Also they were less one dimensional than today's kids as they had a wider range of hobbies and interests than today's xBox generation. The age range for any given rank would also have been wider than at present.

today's military (courageous and militarily competent as they are) generally are career soldiers/airmen and have only the skills they are trained to have from the military arm they serve. This is not a criticism of today's squaddy or my generation but simply an observation.

I salute all who have served of any generation.

J_H

 

[capt71]

Don't forget, at that time, with a world war going on, the mind-set of the American Citizen toward the military and the war was totally different than it is with today's wars and attitude toward military duty. In WW2, although there was a Draft, hundreds of thousands of men (and women) actively and willingly volunteered for duty, specifically "action" duty (in the front lines). "Duty" was more an integral part of that mind-set. The issues then seemed to be more "black and white", and the lines between what was percieved to be good and evil were more clear (although right now they also seem to be crystal clear!). With today's electronic advances (with combat able to be fought more at a distance) of course, more specialized skill-sets are required. However, the WW2 soldier/airman recieved specific skill-set training for what was required of them at that time.
I'm not sure I competely agree with Jacket_Head's statement: "today's military.....generally are career soldiers/airmen". Perhaps in the officer ranks this is true, but the average enlisted member tends, in general, to leave the military and choose not to make it a career. Also, volunteerism seems to be down. (I'm only speaking of the U.S. here--I can't speak for other countries). I also strongly believe that today's soldier/airman, faced with similar conditions that the WW2 vets were compelled to deal with, would be (and are!) just as capable and able to face them. Character/Courage is not defined merely by the times and/or the amount of education, scope of training, or whether he/she is a volunteer, a draftee, or a career soldier. I forget the exact source or wording of this quote, but a past military figure said, "Heroes are just ordinary men who are caught in extraordinary circumstances" (or something like that...).
Bill

 

[Anonymous]

Fair comment Bill.
Perhaps I should clarify a little ?
By career soldiers I meant that in the main they tend to go in young and lack life experiences and other skills picked up in former careers like the WW2 generation did. The topic was PoW's and i was referring to things like the thieves, scroungers, i.d. fakers, engineers, linguits, scholars etc,etc who contributed to the Great Escapes of WW2. If you go in the military at 17 or 18 then you tend not to have those skills in the same measure as in WW2. With the exception of the Royal Engineers (and precious few of them) could write log tables from memory, sine/cosine/tangent tables ,accurate protractors etc to calculate with any accuracy the distance needed to tunnel. The ability to improvise is also less than back then. A Depression Era generation used to some hardship and getting by on their wits and being inventive. Sure they were given the skills sets needed to fight and, to a lesser extent, evade but not to escape froma camp.

I'm certainly not knocking those serving now but in the context of PoW camps (and remember that that is where I'm talking here) how can we compare ?

Also remember that in enlisted men's camps (they were seperated from their officers), they were made to work bloody hard on starvation rations and were probably too knackered to try to escape. Almost without exception enlisted men did not escape. (Before anyone gets pedantic, I know there were exceptions ! )

I'm not talking about fighting spirit or courage in combat but only within the context of a PoW camp environment. In the former respects the men and women of today are as brave, resiliant and stoic as any other generation. I thought I'd made that abundantly clear in my previous post.

Cheers,
J_H

 

[capt71]

J_H
I agree with you and apologize if it sounded like I was aiming a flame thrower at your comments--I wasn't. I never once thought that you were knocking today's (or any days') troops. I've read nothing but praise and admiration for the WW2 generation here.
When I wrote about "character/courage" and facing adversity, I actually did have in mind the POWs of WW2 as well as Korea, Viet Nam, and today's Mid-East. Guess I should have clarified as well? Your points about general abilities then and now are well taken. Probably many of those WW2 thieves, scroungers, etc, you mention did enlist at 17 and 18 (voluntarily, or, in some cases, maybe at the "suggestion" of a Judge? ) , bringing their particular "talents" into the military with them and were able to develop and use them to survive the POW camps.
Could the average "20-something" modern day college or high school kid, captured by the enemy and thrown into the same horrible situations have the wits or inventiveness to survive? Maybe, maybe not. You're also right that there is no way to compare. Post-WW2 era POW treatment has become more geared for psychological destruction, rather than simple physical destruction, requiring a wholly different set of survival skills.
Bill

 

[johnwayne]

This thread could go on - iin todays Daly Mail it says Virgil Hilts's character is based on a Brit, Eric Foster, 7 times escapee from various camps!!!!

The main article this came from says there's a claim that our American friends basically won us the Battle of Britain due to the high octane fuel that 'added 30mph' to the Spitfires! Apparently the Luftwaffe were staggered at the performace difference between fighting over France and then over the UK later in 1940!!!

I did read sometime ago too that there was a poss film being considered about the BoB starring Tom Cruise who wins it John Wayne (the real one, not me) style on his own!! As far as I know only one US flyer flew with the RAF at that time and he only played a minor role. Oh sorry, I forgot about Ben Affleck's RAF heroics in 'Pearl Harbour'.

Sorry to our US friends, this isn't Yank bashing, but us Brits will never buy that much like U571 where you claim to have captured Enigma - our Navy boys did that - you can't change the history so don't deny us our glory, please!!

We love you all really, especially your flight jackets!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wayne

 

[John Lever]

My advice, head for the bunker....

 

[rich]

This thread could go on - iin todays Daly Mail it says Virgil Hilts's character is based on a Brit, Eric Foster, 7 times escapee from various camps!!!!

The main article this came from says there's a claim that our American friends basically won us the Battle of Britain due to the high octane fuel that 'added 30mph' to the Spitfires! Apparently the Luftwaffe were staggered at the performace difference between fighting over France and then over the UK later in 1940!!!

I did read sometime ago too that there was a poss film being considered about the BoB starring Tom Cruise who wins it John Wayne (the real one, not me) style on his own!! As far as I know only one US flyer flew with the RAF at that time and he only played a minor role. Oh sorry, I forgot about Ben Affleck's RAF heroics in 'Pearl Harbour'.

Sorry to our US friends, this isn't Yank bashing, but us Brits will never buy that much like U571 where you claim to have captured Enigma - our Navy boys did that - you can't change the history so don't deny us our glory, please!!

We love you all really, especially your flight jackets!!!!!!!!!!!!Wayne

I feel your main point to be incorrect Wayne.............................. these men didn't have to be there, which for me makes them all the more extraordinary.

The first three members of the Eagle Squadron obtained their transfers to No. 71 Squadron RAF in September 1940. They were:
Vernon Charles "Shorty" Keough
Andrew B. Mamedoff
Eugene Quimby "Red" Tobin
All three men were Battle of Britain veterans, having served together in No. 609 Squadron RAF, at RAF Middle Wallop.
They had joined the RAF Volunteer Reserve (RAFVR) together (receiving consecutive service numbers), having been posted to 609 Squadron together, having fought the Battle of Britain together, and having transferred to 71 together. The trio had also all been killed by the time of the transfer of the Eagle Squadrons to the USAAC in 1942:
81620 Pilot Officer Vernon C. Keough was killed in February, 1941. Age 29.cwgc
81622 Flying Officer Eugene Q. Tobin was killed in September, 1941. Age 24.cwgc
81621 Flight Lieutenant Andrew B. Mamedoff was killed in October 1941, by then transferred, with a promotion to be a Flight Commander in another Eagle Sqn., No. 133 Squadron RAF.cwgc
Another Battle of Britain veteran was Phillip Howard Leckrone. He had served in another squadron with an Auxiliary Air Force heritage: No. 616 Squadron RAF. He was another who was killed early:
84653 P/O. Phillip H. Leckrone was killed in January, 1941. Age 28.cwgc
The lives of these four pilots has been described in THE FEW by Alex Kershaw[2].
It is reported that Pilot Officer Art Donahue DFC stayed with the Eagle Squadron only a short time before requesting a transfer back to his original RAF unit. He did not appreciate the unruly behavior of many of the American pilots. He was KIA in 1942.[3][4]
Captain Don Gentile was a pilot with 133 squadron, claiming 2 air victories, and by March 1944 became the 4th FG's top ace in WWII with 22 air kills.
Chesley 'Pete' Peterson had 130 sorties with the Eagle Squadrons, he then became the youngest Squadron Commander in the RAF. When the Eagle Squadrons were transferred to the USAAC 4th Fighter Group, Peterson became the group's executive officer, succeeding to command of the group in April 1943, and at 23 years of age the youngest (at the time) colonel in the US Army Air Corps.
Col. Donald Blakeslee was a pilot in 121 and 133 Squadrons during 1942, making 120 sorties and claiming 3 air kills, became deputy commander of the 4th Fighter Group under Chesley Peterson, then commanded the group from January to October 1944. Blakeslee flew briefly with the 354th and 357th Fighter Groups in January 1944 when the P-51 Mustang was introduced to combat in Europe and immediately became the driving force behind conversion of all but one of the Eighth Air Force fighter groups to the Mustang. His insistence on converting to the Mustang resulted in a rapid turnover of airplanes, with the former Eagle squadrons flying their first Mustang mission on February 24, 1944. Flight Lt. Charles A. Cook Jr. was member of 133 Sqd. He was shot down in Sep. 1942 and was a prisoner of war at Stalag Luft III until 1945. He was a member of what was known as "The Long March", when German forces decided to empty the camps in the face of the Russian advance.