The Collar/Windflap/Zipper intersection- various repros compared to original Aeros- 21996,18775 and 15142

[Smithy]

Now, if I received a jacket from ANY of the repro manufacturer’s and it had the aforementioned faults would I send it back ? Yes, of course I would and I would be very surprised if anyone would be happy to keep it in the interests of historical accuracy. I mean , you pay high Dollar for these products and if it’s not perfectly aligned I know it would definitely bug me. But maybe thats just me.

That's very, very true and considering you're paying nigh on a king's ransom for some jackets you'd be daft not to expect high standards. It's just funny when talking ultimate accuracy to an original, you kind of need to mention the important fact that the originals were not made to the same exacting aesthetic standards as the high end repros today. In fact a high end repro is essentially over engineered compared to the jackets they aim to copy.

 

[B-Man2]

Now, if I received a jacket from ANY of the repro manufacturer’s and it had the aforementioned faults would I send it back ? Yes, of course I would and I would be very surprised if anyone would be happy to keep it in the interests of historical accuracy. I mean , you pay high Dollar for these products and if it’s not perfectly aligned I know it would definitely bug me. But maybe thats just me.

And you’d be absolutely justified in sending it back. No debate there. The point of my post was that there was much criticism over the placement of the stitching on a repro jacket that got ugly after a while , but that an original jacket with those same flaws would be acceptable to any of us here and we’d be ecstatic to have it.

 

[B-Man2]

That's very, very true and considering you're paying nigh on a king's ransom for some jackets you'd be daft not to expect high standards. It's just funny when talking ultimate accuracy to an original, you kind of need to mention the important fact that the originals were not made to the same exacting aesthetic standards as the high end repros today. In fact a high end repro is essentially over engineered compared to the jackets they aim to copy.

You nailed it . I tried but may have missed the mark.

 

[s4rmark]

Originals, yes . I wouldn’t have it any other way , but reproductions are or should be made to exacting standards as specified by the governing authorities ( for want of a better phrase) .

 

[B-Man2]

Point taken ... well said.

 

[Bombing IP]

I for one, am glad Jeff's back. Nice to learn something new!

If it is him I am also glad to see him back ,his knowledge exceeds anyone I know on A2 types .

Jeff

 

[Silver Surfer]

then again, if one wanted a true authentic "clone" of an original, one could ask the maker to make it with flaws and all. smithy nailed it with "over engineered". muslim art is for the most part highly designed, repeated geometric patterns that are always symmetric.......that is until the maker of the art [architecture, rugs, painting, pottery, etc] adds a purposed flaw. only god [allah] is perfect is the humble reasoning.

 

[s4rmark]

Fair enough , if for instance you wanted a like for like copy of a particular jacket I would fully understand that.

 

[DiamondDave]

Now, if I received a jacket from ANY of the repro manufacturer’s and it had the aforementioned faults would I send it back ? Yes, of course I would and I would be very surprised if anyone would be happy to keep it in the interests of historical accuracy. I mean , you pay high Dollar for these products and if it’s not perfectly aligned I know it would definitely bug me. But maybe thats just me.

Gents,
And yet you all wonder why we hold each other to a higher standard? Your own logic betrays you fellas.
DD

 

[B-Man2]

Gents,
And yet you all wonder why we hold each other to a higher standard? Your own logic betrays you fellas.
DD

It’s just a matter of individual preferences nothing more than that really.

 

[s4rmark]

Logic is the study of correct and incorrect reasoning.

 

[Smithy]

If you were really keen on having a repro that was as close to an original as possible then here's a couple of suggestions:

- Ask for one of the pockets to be placed slightly higher on one side. 1 cm should do it.
- Ask to have no laser perfection in the stitching and actually wonky in a couple of places
- Ask to have the pocket flaps slightly non matching both in shape and dimensions compared to the respective pocket
- Ask to have the snaps not lined up to the exact mm but rather slightly out
- Ask to have the label and any stamps not exactly lined up

There's more you could add to this but this would actually yield a jacket far closer to an actual wartime jacket than anything a modern high end repro maker is producing.

DD, makes a good point too, it's funny to demand ultimate accuracy to original A-2s and the lust for the ultimate A-2 copy of an original wartime jacket down to the smallest detail on one hand and yet at the same time demand ultimate precision in terms of workmanship. It sounds crazy but the two are actually mutually exclusive when you look at the real thing.

 

[ausreenactor]

This all ties to a manufacturer who has more customer interest in their civilian styles and they are the bulk of the core business. There are dozens of jackets flying out the door weekly.

All of the makers these days put enough time and effort into their work to ensure the little errors in construction are not present. Some tweaks could easily be made; however, the Aero customer must not be overly concerned or they would have ceased trading decades ago.

 

[Srahimian24]

So I have an extra thought to add. For me personally, the imperfections you'd find on an original would not bother me that much, now some were made just very badly but a good majority of others were not. I think the point of the repros is to match the standards that each contract was supposed to me made at as best as possible. And given the money we pay for these, I want my repro to be as close to accurate for the standards of that contract as possible. So things like Aero missing the epaulets and installing the zipper in a way that was not true to originals does bother me given the price. For some people who don't care that's fine, but for those who do its good to know which makers nail it and which don't. It should also be pointed out that John Chapman has started making some of his coats with the more "rushed" stitching to more closely emulate the WWII jackets themselves.

For me, if you want a well made jacket that is as close to the standards of the original pattern as possible, then GW and DD are your best bet. If you do not care about stuff like that, than Aero of Scotland is a good option for you.

 

[ausreenactor]

Two of my 90s jackets were Aero's. They were great jackets but the hides were quite thick compared to the original maker ELCs that I had back then. One had a decal and I was less inclined to wear it outdoors. I have never had an A-2 with a decal since. The big thing that stuck out with my early GW A-2s was that the hides were all very 'flat' finished and they tended to look alike at first appearance. Obviously the stitching, contract differences and hardware were different; however, they all looked alike. Not sure if I just scored three second hand jackets made from the same hide.... I have not felt the compulsion to pounce on another one since. Still have my DD Bronco in the box. It might see daylight one day....

I work on the listing pic 'wow'. If it looks great in the listing pic, at a reduced size, I will give it a go. You can never get the 'feel' of a jacket from an eBay or Yahoo listing but the 'look' of the full size jackets and the front panel grain are the drivers for my buys. And what the potential resale is!

Trust me, I care. I have spent as much on reference books than I have on the WWII kit.

 

[ZuZu]

It's like I mentioned several times before, there's four original A-2s at the museum and every single one of them has pockets out of whack. One side being slightly higher than the other, around 1cm or half an inch in most cases, and/or the pocket flaps being over or undersized for the pocket. They all also have wonky stitching in places and the studs are not precisely aligned either.

That just tells me that repro makers should be making certain contracts with the pockets out of whack! Especially Aero- I've never seen an original that had the pockets in whack. Almost always the windflap side pocket is a good 1/2 inch out of line with the other pocket. Sometimes the other way around! These are "flaws" which should be replicated- especially if we want jackets that look like originals. Doing this without drawing attention to the so-called flaws would be the art form. Figuring out WHY the pockets are out of whack on originals would also help the repro maker replicate the original sewing order. Recreating factory conditions, if done subtly and not over the top- will lead to better repros! Remember back when? Many of you gentlemen on this very forum argued AGAINST grainy "flawed" leather- smooth was king! I also disagree that wartime jackets made in a factory were flawed somehow. I'm absolutely positive that there was QC and that any jacket not sewn to spec (not necessarily an aesthetic spec) was discarded.

 

[ZuZu]

Now, if I received a jacket from ANY of the repro manufacturer’s and it had the aforementioned faults would I send it back ? Yes, of course I would and I would be very surprised if anyone would be happy to keep it in the interests of historical accuracy. I mean , you pay high Dollar for these products and if it’s not perfectly aligned I know it would definitely bug me. But maybe thats just me.

Actually it bugs me that most repros are so clean and sterile! Sterile! Give me the misaligned pockets, occasional sewing bugaboo, etc.! Give me the factory made look! Doing this correctly is harder than building a sterile Plain Jane repro. Also doing this would force repro makers to sew jackets as they were originally done. There is a reason certain flaws reappear predictably in certain contracts. Doing this would lso lead to recreating certain collar folds or certain pocket flap foibles.

 

[B-Man2]

Actually it bugs me that most repros are so clean and sterile! Sterile! Give me the misaligned pockets, occasional sewing bugaboo, etc.! Give me the factory made look! Doing this correctly is harder than building a sterile Plain Jane repro. Also doing this would force repro makers to sew jackets as they were originally done. There is a reason certain flaws reappear predictably in certain contracts. Doing this would lso lead to recreating certain collar folds or certain pocket flap foibles.

ZUZU
At this point I'm completely confused and let me explain why, for about six pages of text both you and DD went after Aero pretty hard over some epaulet stitching, that didn't conform exactly to an original WWII issued Aero A2. Now you guys went after him on some other issues as well, but lets just focus on the epaulet stitching. The focus of the criticism was basically that that the jacket should be made to more exacting standards of the WWII contract it represented, and the fact that the end of the epaulet at the shoulder was stitch with a X in the center of the box, where as authentic original Aero A2s had the stitching crossing lower in the box. Now here's where I've become confused. Because War time production was rushed to get jackets made and into the system many jackets do not fully conform to exacting standards set forth in their contracts and as such have noticeable flaws. So now here's my question: Are you now saying that repro makers should attempt to make their reproes more authentic by including those flaws?? I think that's what you just said. Because if that's the case, isn't that what Aero did, all be it unknowingly but the jacket you posted with the mis stitching was pretty much what you would expect to find in a War time flawed jacket. Do you see why I'm confused? I mean I was with you right up until this point, so did I miss something?

 

[Saint-ex]

So now here's my question: Are you now saying that repro makers should attempt to make their reproes more authentic by including those flaws?? I think that's what you just said. Because if that's the case, isn't that what Aero did, all be it unknowingly but the jacket you posted with the mis stitching was pretty much what you would expect to find in a War time flawed jacket. Do you see why I'm confused? I mean I was with you right up until this point, so did I miss something?

I'm confused to !

 

[blackrat2]

Ditto