Inter-war Werbers and their Hookless Zippers

[Tokyo Jones]

Hey everyone,

Noob alert: While this is my first post here, I have read as much as I can both here and at http://www.thefedoralounge.com about the various Werber repros. Still, I do have a few questions I was hoping some you guys might be able to help me out with.

I'm considering purchasing one of three jackets in the near future, either the Eastman '33 or the GoodWear '39 A-2, or the Rickson '31 B-2.

I'm curious to know whether the Hookless zip used in each of these jackets has a single source (either with the Hookless, Talon, or blank pull) or whether each company has produced a separate replica. I guess I'm curious because of Eastman's claim that "[o]ne of the glowing features we have managed to reproduce for this garment is the early production Hookless® zip."

I also notice that the color of Eastman's '33 differs significantly from the version offered by The Few. I actually quite like the color of the Eastman, but the differences and similarities between these jackets make me wonder which is the more accurate, if they share sources for zips and other components, and which company actually got the ball rolling for the 1729 contract A-2s.

I think I read here that the original jacket Eastman developed their 1729 from was purchased from one of this forum's members. As the finish of the ELC is quite close to the original, was the original faded at all? That might explain the difference between the ELC version and that from The Few.

Sorry for such a long first post!
Tokyo Jones

 

[Grant]

I've never seen an original Werber, or any flight jacket for that matter, with a Hookless zip so I think ELC has taken some creative license.

 

[John Lever]

Eastman and Buzz R might use the same zip as they do have a trading relationship. The Buzz B-2 is my favourite.

 

[Tokyo Jones]

Thanks for the info, John. Actually, your threads on the B-2 here and at TFL have steered me away from Lost Worlds towards the BR - though I will own the LW Pea-coat at some point. And their J23.

Anyway, I think you've probably answered the major question here. If ELC and BR have a trading relationship, I would suspect BR manufactures the Hookless zip for ELC. I'll ask if I order one from them.

I guess I just find it interesting to trace the history of some of these repros. Was it ELC's '33 that lead to the Hookless repro used in it and the '31 BR B-2? What about the GoodWear '39?

In some ways the repros are as interesting as the originals.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Thanks for the info, John. Actually, your threads on the B-2 here and at TFL have steered me away from Lost Worlds towards the BR - though I will own the LW Pea-coat at some point. And their J23.

Anyway, I think you've probably answered the major question here. If ELC and BR have a trading relationship, I would suspect BR manufactures the Hookless zip for ELC. I'll ask if I order one from them.

I guess I just find it interesting to trace the history of some of these repros. Was it ELC's '33 that lead to the Hookless repro used in it and the '31 BR B-2? What about the GoodWear '39?

In some ways the repros are as interesting as the originals.

I just ordered a Werber from John (GW). Should be here in Feb I'll let ya know. I think there are a couple of members here that have one.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Eastman and Buzz R might use the same zip as they do have a trading relationship. The Buzz B-2 is my favourite.

John that jacket is just BEAUTIFUL!!!

 

[Roughwear]

I understand that the original 1933 Werber had a size 7 Talon zip and that the Eastman Pull is not accurate. The 1939 Werber had a size 5 Talon, usually with the fantail pull variety. John Chapman uses a size 5 Hookless repro zip for 1939 Werber. I too have one on order.As to the original colour of the 1933 Werber, they were russet horse hide if the surviving originals are any guide.

 

[John Lever]

Eastman and Buzz R might use the same zip as they do have a trading relationship. The Buzz B-2 is my favourite.

John that jacket is just BEAUTIFUL!!!

The thing is it's so comfortable to wear. The moquette [?] lining is very soft and does not irritate in the way woollen blanket does and the horsehide is very soft as it'd aniline veg tanned.
If you can wait, there may be an Aero version in the pipeline....

 

[Falcon_52]

To be honest, I don't think you could really go wrong with any of those jackets. I also own the Buzz Rickson's B-2 and I can wholeheartedly agree with what John Lever stated. It's just a great jacket - great fit, good in a wide temperature range, comfortable...I could go on and on.

I also have the Eastman version of the '33 Werber. I would definitely recommend this one as well. I don't know about the Good Wear Werber but I'm sure it's killer as well.

Why not get all three and have an unbeatable collection?

Regards,

Noel

 

[Tokyo Jones]

Great pics as usual, John. You do seem to be the expert on B-2s, as you've owned all three repros if I'm not mistaken. Given that I'd prefer the original caramel finish, is the BR worth 300.00+ GBP more than a Lost Worlds B-2 in a black finish, in your estimation?

Interesting that on the BR B-2 the Hookless is correctly riveted through the leather, while on the ELC that's not the case. Seems like the seam where the zip attaches to the leather might be a millimeter or two off - hardly worth mentioning really.

Still, the other details of the ELC A-2 seem quite convincing, at least when compared to the photos of the original on their site. In fact, I hadn't noticed it until reviewing the pics for this thread, but there is a pic showing the area beneath the pocket flap, which is very close to the color of the ELC. At least as far as this specimen goes, the ELC is closer than The Few model to this particular original.

God, now I want both the ELC and the BR!

 

[Tokyo Jones]

To be honest, I don't think you could really go wrong with any of those jackets. I also own the Buzz Rickson's B-2 and I can wholeheartedly agree with what John Lever stated. It's just a great jacket - great fit, good in a wide temperature range, comfortable...I could go on and on.

I also have the Eastman version of the '33 Werber. I would definitely recommend this one as well. I don't know about the Good Wear Werber but I'm sure it's killer as well.

Why not get all three and have an unbeatable collection?

Regards,

Noel

Falcon_52, that's some dangerous talk right there!

Actually, your comment on the temperature range is perfectly timed - I was just wondering about that. I live in Atlanta, and visit Colorado every winter. The History Preservation website suggests the B-2 is appropriate for 42° F and below. That's pretty much only December and January 'round these here parts. Maybe February. Is that accurate? Or could I get away with that jacket and a t-shirt with temps up into the 50s?

Thanks for your help everyone!

 

[Falcon_52]

For me, the B-2 is not too warm for 50 degree weather if you are wearing a short-sleeved shirt. Especially if it is 50 - 60 degrees and overcast/rainy/windy then it's nice and comfy.

On the other side of the temperature spectrum, I can be comfortable in the B-2 down to around -4 F with a thin wool sweater underneath. I'm sure Atlanta has never seen those type of temps...maybe Colorado though.

Noel

 

[asiamiles]

I guess I just find it interesting to trace the history of some of these repros. Was it ELC's '33 that lead to the Hookless repro used in it and the '31 BR B-2? What about the GoodWear '39?

While BR's first model B-2 had a Talon zipper, their second model B-2 which has a Hookless (the same with the 37J1 - first model Talon, second model Hookless) predates ELC's Werber.

Given that I'd prefer the original caramel finish, is the BR worth 300.00+ GBP more than a Lost Worlds B-2 in a black finish, in your estimation?

I haven't owned a LW B-2, but did have a first model BR B-2 which was along the same lines only not quite so stiff and heavy as the LW. I find the second model preferable for a number of reasons, the added length being one, but also the jacket being much softer is basically much more "wearable". From what John has reported about the LW B-2, it seems to be more like armour than a jacket!

FYI BR do a B-2 in black as well, in the William Gibson line, and there was a store-exclusive one in black with brown waistband and pocket flap...didn't work for me. Now a black one with a brown mouton collar could be a stunner. But you say you want one in "caramel" colour? That would only be from The Few.

While weight- and wamth-wise the B-2 would not be restricted to the lower temps that something like B-3 is, I think the large fur collar might look a little odd if you wore it when the weather was mild...depends on your surroundings really.

 

[John Lever]

Great pics as usual, John. You do seem to be the expert on B-2s, as you've owned all three repros if I'm not mistaken. Given that I'd prefer the original caramel finish, is the BR worth 300.00+ GBP more than a Lost Worlds B-2 in a black finish, in your estimation?

Interesting that on the BR B-2 the Hookless is correctly riveted through the leather, while on the ELC that's not the case. Seems like the seam where the zip attaches to the leather might be a millimeter or two off - hardly worth mentioning really.

Still, the other details of the ELC A-2 seem quite convincing, at least when compared to the photos of the original on their site. In fact, I hadn't noticed it until reviewing the pics for this thread, but there is a pic showing the area beneath the pocket flap, which is very close to the color of the ELC. At least as far as this specimen goes, the ELC is closer than The Few model to this particular original.

God, now I want both the ELC and the BR!

No, I'm no expert. I do sell jackets though if I think I am missing a better version that's all.
From the three I own, the LW is the weakest in design and materials. The waist is way too big and the leather is painted and too thick for the cheap zip. It's not a comfortable jacket.
I wouldn't have a black one from any maker.
The BR is worth the extra cash, you will sell the LW if you buy one, then you will lose money from depreciation.
Where are you ?
If you are in the UK Gary will get a B-2 for you.
Just remember to add on 25 % import duty.

 

[Tokyo Jones]

Great pics as usual, John. You do seem to be the expert on B-2s, as you've owned all three repros if I'm not mistaken. Given that I'd prefer the original caramel finish, is the BR worth 300.00+ GBP more than a Lost Worlds B-2 in a black finish, in your estimation?

Interesting that on the BR B-2 the Hookless is correctly riveted through the leather, while on the ELC that's not the case. Seems like the seam where the zip attaches to the leather might be a millimeter or two off - hardly worth mentioning really.

Still, the other details of the ELC A-2 seem quite convincing, at least when compared to the photos of the original on their site. In fact, I hadn't noticed it until reviewing the pics for this thread, but there is a pic showing the area beneath the pocket flap, which is very close to the color of the ELC. At least as far as this specimen goes, the ELC is closer than The Few model to this particular original.

God, now I want both the ELC and the BR!

No, I'm no expert. I do sell jackets though if I think I am missing a better version that's all.
From the three I own, the LW is the weakest in design and materials. The waist is way too big and the leather is painted and too thick for the cheap zip. It's not a comfortable jacket.
I wouldn't have a black one from any maker.
The BR is worth the extra cash, you will sell the LW if you buy one, then you will lose money from depreciation.
Where are you ?
If you are in the UK Gary will get a B-2 for you.
Just remember to add on 25 % import duty.

Again, thanks for all the excellent information. I'm in the US, but I think when I contact ELC about the 1729 A-2 I'll also ask about the BR B-2.

 

[John Lever]

Surely HPA can sell you a Buzz B-2 ?
$1325
http://www.historypreservation.com/hpas ... niqnum=192

 

[Tokyo Jones]

Yup - I linked to them in my initial post. I'll certainly contact them as well, and suspect it'll be cheaper to go through them for the BR than through ELC. Still, if I get the 1729 I'll probably order directly through ELC, based on many of the comments I've read about HPA.

 

[deeb7]

Surely HPA can sell you a Buzz B-2 ?
$1325
http://www.historypreservation.com/hpas ... niqnum=192

That's a really good deal .... pretty much the same price ex Japan, with the added costs of international shipping, and duty.

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... n%26sa%3DG

 

[jnlight75]

Surely HPA can sell you a Buzz B-2 ?
$1325
http://www.historypreservation.com/hpas ... niqnum=192

That's a really good deal .... pretty much the same price ex Japan, with the added costs of international shipping, and duty.

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... n%26sa%3DG

Especially when you consider the price for the Buzz A-2 at HPA is $1595!

 

[Falcon_52]

Especially when you consider the price for the Buzz A-2 at HPA is $1595!

Yes I wondered about that as well. Something doesn't make sense: surely the B-2 jacket is a lot more labor-intensive to make than an A-2. Either way, that B-2 price at HPA hasn't changed too much considering the recent strength of the Yen against US dollar. Buy now before it's too late!

Noel