GoodWear vs Eastman. Does it have to be a battle?

[Roughwear]

1. Finish and thickness of the hide, especially used on the new 2010 original maker jackets
2. Collar construction, especially on RWs
3. accuracy of some of the original maker labels
4. lack of indentation on the pocket nipple flaps (apart from on the latest Monarch and RW 27752)
5. Almost perfectly straight stitching, which is not the case of GWs and most oirignals.
6. Incorrect colour of thread on some jackets, such as olive drab thread on the 1401-p

 

[majormajor1]

1. Finish and thickness of the hide, especially used on the new 2010 original maker jackets
2. Collar construction, especially on RWs
3. accuracy of some of the original maker labels
4. lack of indentation on the pocket nipple flaps (apart from on the latest Monarch and RW 27752)
5. Almost perfectly straight stitching, which is not the case of GWs and most oirignals.
6. Incorrect colour of thread on some jackets, such as olive drab thread on the 1401-p

So I guess the answer to my original question is YES, it does have to be a battle.

Enough said

 

[SuinBruin]

How is Andrew offering an (extremely well informed) opinion as the the relative merits of Good Wear and Eastman engaging in a "battle"? He didn't use invective or pejorative terms, he simply stated his opinion as to Good Wear's superiority and then backed it up with examples based on his extensive experience in this matter.

People will always have their preferences as to maker, pattern, leather, etc. So long as those preferences are expressed reasonably and in good faith, what is the problem? I don't care if someone thinks Eastman is as good or better than Good Wear, I have my own preferences and am not going to have my feelings hurt by someone with a different perspective.

This forum thrives on give-and-take and the friendly friction generated by our different backgrounds, attitudes, and opinions. If you have a different take on things, offer it up and be prepared to explain why. Disagreements are not a problem; being disagreeable is.

cheers,
matt

P.S.

On measuring my new "Warhorse" Monarch from Eastman, the thickness is pretty much the same as that quoted above. So, as I said, possibly the same stuff.

Not the same. Eastman is getting its horsehide from Italy, Good Wear from Japan and the U.S. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but they're not the same.

 

[Roughwear]

No it does not have to a battle at all. ELC make very fine A2s, but as a collector of originals I seek the most accurate repros available and IMO the current ones offered by John Chapman are the ones to buy if you want as near to 100% authenticity as is possible with the current leather that is available. The ordinary man in the street would not be able to tell one repro from another and in the end whether one goes for ELC, GW or another maker is down to personal taste, or in my case the desire for authenticity. BTW I understand that much of John's hh is Italian hh that is finished in Japan.

 

[zoomer]

So I guess the answer to my original question is YES, it does have to be a battle.

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[767fo]

So I guess the answer to my original question is YES, it does have to be a battle.

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

:lol:

 

[CBI]

I think the male ego DOES lead to the "there can be only one" idea. GW makes them the most accurate but really whatever one likes is fine. The battle begins when one feels like what they have is being put down or no longer "the best". When Good Wear hit the scene, the ELC, RM collectors felt a bit attacked when in fact they were not. I am afraid there has always been somewhat of a one-ups-manship on this forum which led to further problems. Just make the most informed choice you can and enjoy what you wear, in the end, that's about all that matters.

 

[Weasel_Loader]

I think this topic comes up at least once or twice a year. Why do people still feel offended if a person always prefers a certain maker here? I believe we have a great balance of ELC, RM/FEW, GW and Aero lovers here. Big deal if people always brag about one maker being better than the other. As long as your comfortable with whatever you own, that's what's really important.

 

[majormajor1]

Hey guys – please don’t get me wrong. I’m not trying to criticise or castigate any individual or any manufacturer on here.

I asked what seems to me to be a simple question. Why do some folks feel the need to knock one individual or manufacturer in order to support another?

And the answer, as I expected, is that whilst many are happy to give credit to all the main repro manufacturers for the great work they have ALL done, there are, indeed some that will take a “holier than thou” attitude to their chosen “best”.

And I have to say that ultimately, with the excellent quality of repros we have to choose from today, the only way to differentiate between the best ones is (for want of a better expression) to nit-pick.

We are not talking about Swiss watches here. We are talking about a garment that was mass-produced in tens of thousands, by different companies, under wartime conditions. At the end of the day, it was down to an individual sitting at a sewing machine. Some would have been doing it for years. For some, the jacket in their hands was the first one they’d ever made, cause they just started the job today. Some would be made by people who cared. Some would be made by people who didn’t. My mother worked in just such a factory in WW2, and there was only one real arbiter of how good you were compared with your workmates. And that was how FAST you were.

So to be honest, there are gonna be vast numbers of differences in the jackets we see nowadays, and if manufacturer A makes a faithful copy of an old jacket he has, and manufacturer B makes a faithful copy of a jacket he has, how can anyone say that one is more accurate than the other?
Five years ago, John Chapman didn’t make jackets. John has done some fabulous work in raising the standard in the short time he has been producing, but it is naive to believe that the rest of the industry will simply sit on their hands and do nothing. All are commercial operations who want our money.

Five years ago, John had never bought any hides. (Click here http://www.leatherchemists.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?PN=6&TID=246 to read some early correspondence from him regarding HH). The likes of Gary Eastman have been buying it for over 25 years, so can we really believe that they are incapable of buying exactly the same stuff if they choose to do so?
And whilst I have the greatest respect and admiration for Andrew’s knowledge and dedication to the subject, along with his absolutely superb collection of original A2s, I’m sorry, my friend, but you are “nit-picking “ here.

To compare collar construction, saying GW is more accurate, and then compare stitching, saying ELC is TOO accurate is simply a double standard. As I said earlier, a mass-produced garment, often made by inexperienced workers – so yes, loads of wonky stitching, but loads of wonky collars as well. You can’t have it both ways. (BTW, ELC do make jackets with wonky stitching – they sell them as seconds at the shows – there was an ELC Cable on Ebay just recently with some seriously “friday night” or apprentice-done stitching on both the collar and the pockets).

Andrew also mentions “nipple pocket flaps”. I’ll be honest; I haven’t got the faintest idea of what that is. I guess it should read “nipple pocket SNAPS. In which case, yes, five years ago ELC didn’t have ‘em – their latest jackets do. Five years ago GW didn’t exist, so why the comparison?

And as for the latest hides, there simply aren’t that many sources of this stuff in the world now, and for both GW and ELC to be sourcing from Italy (whether via Japan or not – that is quite common in the leather trade), then the likelihood of it being the same stuff is very high. As I have said before, I have measured the thickness of ELC “Warhorse” with a micrometer, and it IS the same as the stated thickness of the new GW HH.

At the end of the day, thanks to guys like John and Gary, we are very lucky to be able to buy jackets which are pretty perfect repros of the WW2 jackets we revere. John has worked hard to raise the bar in recent times. Gary has spent many years doing the same. Personally, I am grateful to them all, and to the excellent level of knowledge and enthusiasm on here.

 

[dmar836]

Can we now lock this thread. It should have been titled, "Let's Start An Arguement About Why GW Is No Better Than ELC."

So the question has now been answered. Yes it is easy to sustain an argument about variences in different makers jackets.

 

[majormajor1]

Can we now lock this thread. It should have been titled, "Let's Start An Arguement About Why GW Is No Better Than ELC."

So the question has now been answered. Yes it is easy to sustain an argument about variences in different makers jackets.

I'm sorry, I thought this was a forum - isn't discussion what is supposed to happen here?

Yeah, lock it mate. I'll say nothing more on here

 

[Tim P]

if every thread on this very finite area of interest got locked for being repetetive whe would be in the poo.

 

[Roughwear]

And whilst I have the greatest respect and admiration for Andrew’s knowledge and dedication to the subject, along with his absolutely superb collection of original A2s, I’m sorry, my friend, but you are “nit-picking “ here.

The devil is in the detail. I'm certainly not "nit picking" but giving an objective assessment of the issues with some ELC A2s. I'm sorry you say you do not know about the indentation in nipple snaps, but for people who want 100% accuracy it is important to get this detail and all others correct. In the 1970s Avirex was the ultimate in repro A2s, but of course these were way off in many respects. ELC emerged on the market in the mid '80s and produced more accurate A2s and have tried to improve their jackets over the years. The arrival of GW on the scene four years ago did make some of the repro makers, including ELC, up their game. It is no coincidence that Gary has recently introduced his new Italian sourced hh along with a hefty price hike to complete. I can understand that those who have splashed out nearly £700 on an ELC A2 are abit miffed to find that their prized A2 is not as accurate as a Good Wear, but that's how it goes. The solution is either order a GW or buy a decent original.

 

[John Lever]

I have to say that beyond a certain point the obsession with detail becomes just that, obsessive and to many people pointless.
Also remember that John is a bespoke craftsman offering a very personal and specific service, where as Eastman are a mass producer who do not stray at all from their sometimes inflexible business model.
It's rather like Aston Martin where each engine is made by one man and signed, compared to a mass produced but probably reliable factory car from Ford.

 

[cmk-2]

If we are going to "nit pick" lets bring up GW's knits. I have owned only 2 of John's jackets not the dozens that others have owned and only 3 Eastman A-2's. From my limited experience John's knits are not as close to the "real thing" as Eastman's. I understand that John has up-graded to knits made in Japan. On another note let's talk about John's customer service that HAS been great up until now. Again my only experience with John 's customer service was during an order of an jacket. Now my experience with a problem after the order is some what lacking. I had John make a " Great Escape" RW for me about a year ago and the waistband has never been tight. It hangs like a skirt. I told John about it when he sent me the jacket and he stated alot of originals were like that and there was not much he could do. Since then I heard about his new knits. I called John at the end of June and he told me that yes his new ones were much better, I asked him if he would replace the waistband and he said to wait a month or two and then send the jacket back to him and he would replace it. I waited the two months and then started calling and calling and calling, e-mailing and e-mailing and e-mailing eveing tried texting. After about another month and a half I get a text from his new assistant stating please send tha jacket in a couple of weeks and he'll get to it in a few weeks after that. That was in Oct. I sent the jacket the fist week of Nov. via FedEx. Since then I have called and called e-mailed and e-mailed even texed to no avail and btw no jacket. Please no one say John is very busy and has a new baby. I have a 2 year old boy and have a full time job as well so that excuse rings hollow with me.

 

[Steve27752]

Chill' there is not a problem with Garys jackets at ELC nor a problem with Johns jackets at Goodwear. Both are superb.
I am happy with either either or both.

 

[majormajor1]

[ I'm sorry you say you do not know about the indentation in nipple snaps, but for people who want 100% accuracy it is important to get this detail and all others correct.

Andrew, I did not say I did not know about nipple snaps - I said I didn't understand nipple FLAPS, which is what you said. My ELC has perfectly accurate indentations, thanks very much.

I can understand that those who have splashed out nearly £700 on an ELC A2 are abit miffed to find that their prized A2 is not as accurate as a Good Wear, but that's how it goes. The solution is either order a GW or buy a decent original.

Now THAT is exactly the type of "holier than thou" statement I had in mind when I started this thread. Looks like a sales pitch to me.

I really do suggest that this thread is closed now, because my question has certainly been answered

 

[CBI]

yes, this happens every time, egos, complaining - shut it down.

Andrew - your posts hit the mark and were well done........

 

[stanier]

Let's hope that both companies keep in business, especially through these difficult times and keep whetting our appetites with their wonderful products.

Top of my A-2 wish list would be a Goodwear Dubow with an early chrome Crown zip, and equal top choice one of ELC's new Warhorse Star models. I want them both!

But right now I really wish I had a B-3 with all the snow!

Cheers all!

 

[John Lever]

I too think there is room for both companies. I can also tell you that the people at Eastman have high regard for JC.