Blather- or "you can lead a horse..."

[Anonymous]

Grant:

Just had a question. If GW jackets are "as close as one can get to an exact copy" why is it that most of the GW jackets you buy from John end up on ebay after you post photos on the forum and blather on the forum about how perfect they are? Odd.

Thanks for that Grant- nothing I like better than a little catfight on the forum! I've got 2 answers for you- I have no loyalty to my jackets if another better one comes along and often I buy test jackets which usually are a tiny bit short in the sleeves. Goodwears are relatively perfect as copies of original A-2s- that doesn't mean that some don't look better than others on me. And isn't really about how they look on? The other thing is that John is always improving his details- the ones that he can't control like leather, zippers, snaps etc. Last summer he was at about 95% when he got his first batch of horsehide- now he's getting even closer with more leather choices and zipps etc. Even with all that it's possible to get a Goodwear that doesn't look as good as others when worn- just as it's possible to get an original that looks a little funny. The thing is that if I examine a Goodwear I'm not going to instantly notice wrong details and annoying fit characteristics. Of all people I would have thought you'd appreciate "the look" which original A-2s have- you're not really getting that with most repros IMO. If you're willing to buy and sell jackets and communicate with John you will end up with something which has that tough-to-nail-down WW2 look!

 

[Anonymous]

Could be the look you discussed, however collecting jackets is an illness, got to have something new all the time.

 

[John Lever]

My theory is and I know it won't be popular, men of today are considerably bigger,in particular around the middle, than their 1930's counterparts . The patterns are 30's that's the issue.

 

[Anonymous]

My theory is and I know it won't be popular, men of today are considerably bigger,in particular around the middle, than their 1930's counterparts . The patterns are 30's that's the issue.

I agree- I think the 30s guys were smaller in the chest and waist and were smaller boned. I wear a 42/44 Long in modern clothing and a 46/48 in WW2 A-2s. Large WW2 A-2s had certain characteristics which happened as they got bigger (depending on contract of course) but a carefully crafted copy can give a modern guy "the look". Making shoulders too big and armholes too large as some do is not the answer IMO. Tweaking the original pattern is fine but redesigning it (as some do) goes too far IMO.

 

[rich]

Rotenhahn -
even if I had an original WW2 A2, it would need to be something like 23" across the shoulders for it to fit me, and I can't see that happening without the chest size being somewhat massive. But I'd be pleased to learn differently.
So, I believe my body-type limits me. Also, I don't really want to wait up to a year for a bespoke jacket, the attention to detail is not that vital to me. Perhaps to you, yes, and I understand and appreciate that. Also, any US made jacket becomes artificially expensive because of the various import duties into the EU. But I expect it's the same with jackets going the other way too. I only say these things because there are often practical issues which can limit or define our choices.
So, we're both fortunate people. You have Mr. Chapman, who can supply you with the jacket your trained eye has come to expect - the many posts on the forum clearly show the outstanding quality and detail of GW jackets, I don't think anybody has disputed that yet.
And I can go to Duxford and buy an ELC off the peg, safe in the knowledge that it exceeds my expectations. It may not have the edge on the minutia, but then I don't really want or need it to.
I think that's a good status quo, everybody wins. So while I'm glad you have the product which fulfills your ideal, it could be the case that not all the horses are equally thirsty. And it's the degree of vitriol this attitude provokes in you which always takes me by surprise - surely there's enough room for everybody?

 

[Anonymous]

Rotenhahn -
even if I had an original WW2 A2, it would need to be something like 23" across the shoulders for it to fit me, and I can't see that happening without the chest size being somewhat massive. But I'd be pleased to learn differently.
So, I believe my body-type limits me. Also, I don't really want to wait up to a year for a bespoke jacket, the attention to detail is not that vital to me. Perhaps to you, yes, and I understand and appreciate that. Also, any US made jacket becomes artificially expensive because of the various import duties into the EU. But I expect it's the same with jackets going the other way too. I only say these things because there are often practical issues which can limit or define our choices.
So, we're both fortunate people. You have Mr. Chapman, who can supply you with the jacket your trained eye has come to expect - the many posts on the forum clearly show the outstanding quality and detail of GW jackets, I don't think anybody has disputed that yet.
And I can go to Duxford and buy an ELC off the peg, safe in the knowledge that it exceeds my expectations. It may not have the edge on the minutia, but then I don't really want or need it to.
I think that's a good status quo, everybody wins. So while I'm glad you have the product which fulfills your ideal, it could be the case that not all the horses are equally thirsty. And it's the degree of vitriol this attitude provokes in you which always takes me by surprise - surely there's enough room for everybody?

Very well put- I agree completely with the situation as you've described it! As far as vitriol- forgive me that- it's just that after thirty years and all the hype about "authenticity" and just generalized bullshit some companies throw around and after thousands of dollars spent on my quest I have little patience... your post is well put.

 

[John Lever]

You're wrong on the import duty from the US on JC's jackets. I only paid £50.

 

[rich]

You're wrong on the import duty from the US on JC's jackets. I only paid £50.

You know something I don't John. My £500 Irvin, from a collector in California, cost me £708.19 by the time it came through my front door. The alternative - not to pay the duty and then it's returned to sender? I guess the seller can lower it's value
on the documents but then you've another set of problems if it goes walkies. It all seems unfair and detrimental, however
you cut it up.

 

[rich]

Very well put- I agree completely with the situation as you've described it! As far as vitriol- forgive me that- it's just that after thirty years and all the hype about "authenticity" and just generalized bullshit some companies throw around and after thousands of dollars spent on my quest I have little patience... your post is well put.[/quote]

It's understandable - and I'm really just a novice, who hasn't been bitten that hard yet. Good luck with all your future purchases!

 

[jacketimp]

You're wrong on the import duty from the US on JC's jackets. I only paid £50.

You know something I don't John. My £500 Irvin, from a collector in California, cost me £708.19 by the time it came through my front door. The alternative - not to pay the duty and then it's returned to sender? I guess the seller can lower it's value
on the documents but then you've another set of problems if it goes walkies. It all seems unfair and detrimental, however
you cut it up.

wow, I thought it was roughly 30%?

did you get done with the parcel force handling charge too?

 

[jacketimp]

actually a repro is (i assume ) based on a template and how many templates does a producer of a repro have access to?

Even amongst originals there are variations.......then there is the extrapolation with regards to up/down sizes.

or should this be under a different thread?

 

[davyjones007]

I can tell you from my own experience with the GW jacket I ordered from John was amazing. He did a wonderful job on it. The color of the knits and HH were just like a new Aero 21996 off the show room floor. I sold it 4 months later because I can not measure. It was a little tight on the back panel for me. I have a 48 chest but some of that is from having a broad back due to swimming in Masters meets. So it had to go. It will leave a temporary void to be filled by a better GW Aero 21996 when I return from my Persian Excursion.

 

[John Lever]

As Winston Churchill once said ' a factual inexactitude ' [ about the value]

 

[jacketimp]

I can tell you from my own experience with the GW jacket I ordered from John was amazing. He did a wonderful job on it. The color of the knits and HH were just like a new Aero 21996 off the show room floor. I sold it 4 months later because I can not measure. It was a little tight on the back panel for me. I have a 48 chest but some of that is from having a broad back due to swimming in Masters meets. So it had to go. It will leave a temporary void to be filled by a better GW Aero 21996 when I return from my Persian Excursion.

a little bit confused........about the bit like a 'new Aero 21996 off the show room floor?'

does that mean that your ex 21996 looks like it came out of a time capsule?

 

[davyjones007]

I guess what I was trying to say was it looked like what an Aero might have looked like if they were made today or maybe what they looked like new during WWII. We all know that there were imperfections in the jackets in those days, but they must have been well made build wise since so many are still around today and still worn. I feel like Phaedrus and trying to describe quality.

 

[jacketimp]

I guess what I was trying to say was it looked like what an Aero might have looked like if they were made today or maybe what they looked like new during WWII. We all know that there were imperfections in the jackets in those days, but they must have been well made build wise since so many are still around today and still worn. I feel like Phaedrus and trying to describe quality.

thank you for clarifying.

I know now WHO not to choose.

All's well and god wear is in the heavens.........

 

[davyjones007]

I did not mean that there are any imperfections in John's jackets. I meant in originals.

 

[rich]

wow, I thought it was roughly 30%?

did you get done with the parcel force handling charge too?[/quote]

It surprised me too! I bid to my absolute max to try and win the jacket, and this on top was a tad unwelcome! The agreed insured postage from the seller was $67, but my receipt shows that Parcel Force also chipped in with an extra £13.50 'clearance fee' - I
don't know what that means though - handing it over to me? C'est la guerre!

 

[rich]

I guess what I was trying to say was it looked like what an Aero might have looked like if they were made today or maybe what they looked like new during WWII. We all know that there were imperfections in the jackets in those days, but they must have been well made build wise since so many are still around today and still worn. I feel like Phaedrus and trying to describe quality.

A long time since I tried to read that book! The pursuit and meaning of quality - I guess the A2 furore would have been a good substitute for motorbikes!

 

[Anonymous]

I guess what I was trying to say was it looked like what an Aero might have looked like if they were made today or maybe what they looked like new during WWII. We all know that there were imperfections in the jackets in those days, but they must have been well made build wise since so many are still around today and still worn. I feel like Phaedrus and trying to describe quality.

Well pit! That's exactly what I'm talking about! A new A-2 from 1942- no need for ageing- looks cool right from the start. BTW-

when I return from my Persian Excursion.

- are you going to The Gulf?