Too many options for one man. A-2 options discussed.

[Wedge417]

Hello everyone,

As the title implies I'm contemplating a future A-2 purchase, but the choices have blossomed in every direction since 2008 (date of purchase of my first and only A-2).

Back in 2008 I was too poor to consider ELC (big mistake I should have saved up), the internet was not what it is today, thus choices were extremely limited to my then knowledge, and I opted for a US A russet horsehide A-2. It was my first A-2, I knew nothing about them, and ordering online from Europe was somewhat of a pain in the foot as I knew I couldn't get the proper size and would have to be contempt with what I would get in the mail.

I eventually wore the US A jacket sporadically, but was never happy with the cut, the style or the authenticity. I eventually developed a love-hate relationship with that jacket and tried to wear it to break it in, hoping to get rid of those boxy shoulders and stiff leather but to no avail. I'm not even talking about the long sleeves, which are my biggest annoyance. We're in 2021, the jacket is barely worn sleeping on a hanger in my closet and every time I look at it or give it a try, I have this bad taste of ill-spent money.

The time has come for me to try A-2 jackets again. I hope this time will be a better experience.

A few things to know:

-I'm no tall and skinny flamboyant USAF pilot. I'm 5'7" and 176Lbs. I'm retired-mil keeping in shape. Think of Joe Rogan for body type.

-I'm looking for a vintage fit. A jacket that would be like a glove, that I'd pick and wear without questions, tough and well fitting. No baggy stuff. Sleeves on the shorter side.

-Price wise I can't afford GW and other such top de la creme jackets.

I entrust my questions to your wisdom:

Q1: Can my body type be a problem in regards to certain contract specs?

Q2: Among the myriad of quality makers that now exist, ELC, BK, Platon, Aero, Buzz, Real Mc, 5*, AVI ... and those I forget. My head is spinning trying to figure out which one would be MY jacket. I need your help to narrow down my choices and get some advice on sizes.

Thank you all in advance for your precious help, I'm looking forward to receiving your advice.

 

[mulceber]

Well, I'd say strike the Japanese brands, as well as ELC and BK off your list from the start. The Japanese brands can be found used at a bargain, but not in your size, to judge from your description of your body type. Eastman's just plain expensive. Bill Kelso used to be more of a reasonably-priced alternative (and they're still more accurate in most respects, imho), but they've recently raised their prices, and are pretty close to Eastman's range now. With a fluctuating exchange rate and the risk of import duties, either BK or Eastman could end up getting very expensive. I think your best options are the following:

1. Bite the bullet and go Good Wear: it's a $200 deposit, and with GW's wait times, it'll be a year or more before you need to pay the rest. Plenty of time to save. JC will make the jacket tailored to you, and he offers pretty much every contract, so you can pick one that's a good fit for your body type. This is the most expensive option, but it's also the one that's most likely to leave you happy on the first try.

2. Platon - with a Joe Rogan body type, I'm not sure a Dubow is the best contract for you, as the Dubows are typically described as athletic, but it could work out. Hard to say without your measurements. If it works, you'd be getting a top-tier jacket at a bargain price.

3. Aero - they’re probably a notch below Platon in terms of accuracy and a notch above him in price, but really good construction, and the Aero contracts might be more your fit.

4. Five Star - solid construction on a jacket you can beat up. Shawn specializes in Goatskin which is tough to a fault, so you wouldn't have any problems on that front, and his prices can't be beat. And he'll customize the jacket to your body. The downside is that Five Star has a history of quality control issues, and even when those haven't been a problem, there have been members who felt that, while they did get their money's worth, they still weren't wowed by the final result.

 

[MaydayWei]

Well, I'd say strike the Japanese brands, as well as ELC and BK off your list from the start. The Japanese brands can be found used at a bargain, but not in your size, to judge from your description of your body type. Eastman's just plain expensive. Bill Kelso used to be more of a reasonably-priced alternative (and they're still more accurate in most respects, imho), but they've recently raised their prices, and are pretty close to Eastman's range now. A fluctuating exchange rate and the risk of import duties, either BK or Eastman could end up getting very expensive. I think your best options are the following:

1. Bite the bullet and go Good Wear: it's a $200 deposit, and with GW's wait times, it'll be a year or more before you need to pay the rest. Plenty of time to save. JC will make the jacket tailored to you, and he offers pretty much every contract, so you can pick one that's a good fit for your body type. This is the most expensive option, but it's also the one that's most likely to leave you happy on the first try.

2. Platon - with a Joe Rogan body type, I'm not sure a Dubow is the best contract for you, as the Dubows are typically described as athletic, but it could work out. Hard to say without your measurements. If it works, you'd be getting a top-tier jacket at a bargain price.

3. Aero - they’re probably a notch below Platon in terms of accuracy and a notch above him in price, but really good construction, and the Aero contracts might be more your fit.

4. Five Star - solid construction on a jacket you can beat up. Shawn specializes in Goatskin which is tough to a fault, so you wouldn't have any problems on that front, and his prices can't be beat. And he'll customize the jacket to your body. The downside is that Five Star has a history of quality control issues, and even when those haven't been a problem, there have been members who felt that, while they did get their money's worth, they still weren't wowed by the final result.

Nothing to add. That was a perfect summary. Bravo!

 

[MediumMech]

Hmmm...well, if you're in shape, you needn't worry too much about finding something to fit. While many wartime fliers would have been drop 6 or 7 (waist measurement 6 or 7 inches smaller than chest measurement), the A2 jacket itself is around a drop 2 in most patterns. Your height is also well within the range for period, so you probably have plenty of options pattern-wise. Maybe avoid the 1930's patterns, as they often have narrower shoulders and sleeves. Early jackets also typically have a collar stand, and if I were dressing Joe Rogan, I would probably advise against a collar stand on aesthetic grounds.

I actually think a Platon Dubow might work. The great thing is, you have a jacket to compare measurements with. It would probably be worth an email to see how Platon's measurements compare to the jacket you have, and if the differences might work in your favour. If it'll work for you as is, it would be hard to find anything else of that quality at the price. Keep in mind that the narrow shoulder measurements of the Dubow are somewhat compensated for by nice wide sleeve tops.

Otherwise, I'd maybe suggest an Aero. Their "Real Deal" 15142 jacket in particular is at a mid-level price point, and that pattern might be close to what you want. In any case, Aero will customize the jacket in any way you want - longer, shorter, wider shoulders, trimmer waist, etc at no extra cost. Since you are well acquainted with the shortcomings of your current jacket, you probably have a good idea of where you want more or less material. I have an Aero with the jerky horsehide myself, and I personally find it a very nice hide. The only thing with the Aero is that mid-late-war patterns like the 15142 tend to have very little taper naturally (less than a drop 2), which may or may not work in your favour.

As for FiveStar, I actually think it's quite a good jacket for the money, but if this will be your one, ride or die A2, you may find yourself wishing (once again) that you'd saved up a little more!

Finally, no matter what seller or contract you chose, I'd suggest getting a full set of measurements. Normally, measurements given include: Shoulder, pit-to-pit, back length, and sleeve length, but I would probably also ask for sleeve width at top and bottom, and width of the leather hem. If you're ordering from great distances, return postage is unfortunately expensive, and if you order full custom, you'll be stuck with whatever you get, so it's important to get it right!

 

[Brettafett]

I think there's some really good suggestions above.

Platon's Dubow imo is the best high-end A-2 you can buy, all things considered. Authenticity, quality and bang-for-the-buck etc.
I recon the pattern with be fine at the correct size.
Just look at the reviews on here, look at Wei's recent jacket. One of these is all the A-2 you will ever need.
Seems everyones biggest regret with these (besides not being able to get 'long' sizes), is that they didn't order both a seal AND a russet.
Patience required.

Everyone knows Im a big fan of BK's jackets, but yes, price increases and wait times etc... One could easily email them and ask, if you could sneak one in at the 'old' price... In todays global crisis situation, you never know, worth a try perhaps. Great jackets, great quality, great choice... Personally Id be up for one more.
Patience required though.

Jan's idea of putting a deposit down on a GW is a good one also.
Yes, the jacket it is $$$, but look at it this way, $200 deposit now, and then you have 1 to maybe 2 years to put cash aside and work out jacket, spec and sizing. In the end you'll have a top-of-the-pops, bespoke and made-to-measure jacket. And then once in hand and happy, sell off what you will no longer wear.
But this does mean you will have to be very patient and still interested in 2 years time.

After your US A, I would not consider 5* or AVI, you'll just keep looking up at the stars. These jackets are great for the price, great to patch or paint up, decorate, wear in the garden and abuse... but they simply don't stand up to the likes of the top-ends you mentioned.

I have had a few AVI Broncos (probably be getting one of the new horsehide ones to check out, easy returns), and the one I got at the end of 2019 is an amazing jacket to grab on the way out the door. Its comfortable, soft to touch and light. So easy to wear, I love it.
But its not on the same playing field as the top-ends, as far a stitch-for-stich accurate original maker A-2 goes (but then its a fraction of the price).

A secondhand Real McCoys, The Few or Buzz Rickson A-2 (on the 'bay, from the Japanese chaps) might be an option, IF you can get one in decent condition... but Im not a fan of seconds myself... You just never quite know until the jacket is in your hand. And the costs and efforts around refurbishing/ reconditioning are questionable. All depends.

Saying that, there's a ELC Werber in a 38 on 'bay right now, looks very nice. At a good price, may be worth to have it re-conditioned.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255084008879?hash=item3b643115af:g:pfEAAOSw2aRhEV5d

And this...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/194224680129?hash=item2d38b16cc1:g:peUAAOSwSmFg3sDN

I find it interesting... Always a few ELCs, Aeros and Japanese A-2s on the 'bay. Occasionally a few GWs, hardly ever any BKs or Platon Dubows.

Speaking of ELC, place an ad on their Classifieds section. Ive often seen an almost new jacket going up for various reasons.

 

[Sabo]

I have a similar story to yours, a couple of months ago I bought a five star bronco, it's nice but maybe it's too big a size and so I wanted something with more quality. like you I do not want and cannot spend 1000 euros for a jacket and I ordered a platon dubow which, living in Italy, costs me 485 including shipping costs.

 

[Smithy]

Drop the $200 on the GW deposit.

Jan has hit the nail on the head. You've got at least between 12 to 24 months to save up the rest - not very difficult over that timeframe. You'll get a made to measure jacket just for you with an enormous choice of contracts so you can go for one that'll suit your body type - John will help you with that. And they're the best out there.

You've wanted a good A-2 for over a decade which suggests this isn't just some passing fancy, so get the best and be satisfied, and don't waste another decade with something that might not fulfil your expectations.

 

[mulceber]

You've wanted a good A-2 for over a decade which suggests this isn't just some passing fancy, so get the best and be satisfied, and don't waste another decade with something that might not fulfil your expectations.

That's a really strong argument for going for the best, and it bears repeating.

 

[CBI]

yes, deposit for a GW!

 

[Mr. Mike]

With all the excellent summaries above and your initial question, GW will be the safest path (equally the longest though). If the forecasted waiting period appears far too long to you, this would be my suggestion:
Deposit the 200$ to place yourself within the GW queue AND order a Platon Dubow which has 'only' an average waiting time of about half a year. As mentioned above this is by far the best high end reproduction one can get for the price it takes and in sum you are still far below an ELC or a BK. Then you'll have a marvelous A-2 and yet more than a year time to make up your mind whether to stay with your Dubow, ask John for a refund of your deposit or go with the GW.

You can discuss with Platon the correct sizing but as far as I know he only produces regular sizes by now, so look out for the size that matches best to your personal measures/preferences (many vendors provide dedicated advices regarding how to take body measures correctly - how to measure jackets (e.g. for comparison) is quite well explained here https://www.historypreservation.com/measuring-jackets/).

These are the measures for the Dubow contract reproduced by Platon:

 

[Brettafett]

That about sums up the best advice. 100%

 

[Nickb123]

With all the excellent summaries above and your initial question, GW will be the safest path (equally the longest though). If the forecasted waiting period appears far too long to you, this would be my suggestion:
Deposit the 200$ to place yourself within the GW queue AND order a Platon Dubow which has 'only' an average waiting time of about half a year. As mentioned above this is by far the best high end reproduction one can get for the price it takes and in sum you are still far below an ELC or a BK. Then you'll have a marvelous A-2 and yet more than a year time to make up your mind whether to stay with your Dubow, ask John for a refund of your deposit or go with the GW.

You can discuss with Platon the correct sizing but as far as I know he only produces regular sizes by now, so look out for the size that matches best to your personal measures/preferences (many vendors provide dedicated advices regarding how to take body measures correctly - how to measure jackets (e.g. for comparison) is quite well explained here https://www.historypreservation.com/measuring-jackets/).

These are the measures for the Dubow contract reproduced by Platon:

View attachment 65415

Looks like I’d have to go for a 46 to get anything close to a decent length.

 

[Wedge417]

Thank you very much for your well advised options. I have some material to work from now.

I must say I like the idea of putting a deposit at GW, while getting an A-2 from Platon. Life's short, I want an A-2 asap, and what's better than one A-2 if not two.

And yes BK's prices have gone up. ELC's prices too. I have been really silly not to crack the piggy bank earlier and opt for these when there were in the 500ish. I used to live in London and was foolish enough to never actually try any ELC for sizing ideas. Alea jacta est.

I will contact Platon in order to figure out the best size for me. The seal looks really amazing.
What's the current wait time ? 6 months?
Also apart from Ja Dubow 27798 (Platon) A-2 jacket review and pics where else can I have more pictured reviews?

In the meantime I should receive an issue G-1 in a few weeks, nothing crazy just an 80s E series to wear for work and beat the bush. That should occupy me for a bit until the A-2 arrives. I hope the G-1 will fit me.

 

[mulceber]

Oh, and BK's current prices aren't even reflected on their website. They haven't posted exactly what the new prices are, but based on the increased costs of production they gave us, they're probably around 950 pounds now.

I think the idea of putting a deposit down on GW and buying a Platon right away sounds excellent. My only other advice would be to pick a GW contract that's very different (in color, fit and leather tannery) from Platon's jacket, just to maximize variety. So if you get that seal dubow from Platon, go for a less athletic-fitting, russet jacket in something other than Italian Horsehide from JC.

As for pics...I imagine the "What jacket are you wearing today" thread would have a bunch of them. You just might need to wade through a bunch of other jackets (which honestly wouldn't be the worst thing in the world anyway, as it'll give you ideas).

 

[Brettafett]

With Platon (and BK), double check with the guys on here who have them regs size.
Its been the experience of a few, that sometimes the size recommended is not the best size.

 

[MaydayWei]

In my humble and extremely limited experience with A2s, I just have to say that Platon's Dubow is the absolute bees knees. The quality is exceptional for the price. And, as many others on here would attest to, Platon's jackets are, despite their price, equally as top tier as BK, ELC, and maybe even GW.
As for sizing, go for the recommended size per Platon's measurement method if you are built relatively slim. If you have a a bit of a belly or have an especially large and muscular upper body (like Rogan), go up a size.

 

[Smithy]

The big caveat here - and it's a very BIG caveat - is that if you are even slightly on the tall side you can forget about Platon's offering.

If you're one of the lucky shorter chaps in the sweet zone then definitely give the Platon a go, otherwise forget it.

 

[ausreenactor]

Go a FiveStar Dubow as a start. Work with Shawn and see what eventuates, measurement and fit wise.

If the feel of a goatskin jacket isn't too restrictive work on a higher priced item and move on the FiveStar when you have nailed measurements and fit and secured a follow on jacket. Buy what you like on forums or Marketplace based on finish and price.

You won't get the perfect jacket straight up and your body and situation may change on the next year or so.

 

[JimO]

Wedge-

Like many here, I was in your situation. I bought a goatskin Avirex A-2 in 1988 and it has served me well for over 30 years. When Covid hit & I was forced to shelter in place, I watched every episode of "12 O'clock High" and got the bug for a seal horsehide A-2. This led me to VLJ and to the point where you are now.

Thanks to the knowledge & experience of all of the members, I was exposed to many of the options & different paths available and the benefits & pitfalls of each. I wanted a seal horsehide A-2 that fit well, was reasonably priced and is available immediately. As much as I would want a GW, ELC, Aero, BK or Platon, my priorities, values & common sense would not allow me to spend the money & time needed to acquire one as well as risk the uncertainty of doing business with a foreign company unfamiliar to me. I have been down this road many times with custom bespoke guns, knives & bicycles and have learned many lessons, both good & bad.

After all of my research, the logical path was to reset my criteria and order a custom A-2 from Five Star- a goatskin Doniger. It was a nice jacket, but not THE ONE. I ordered another FS- a goatskin Werber. Same story: It was a nice jacket, but not THE ONE. Shawn & Five Star then came out with their best & most accurate pattern, based on an original- a goatskin Dubow, so I ordered one. It looked & fit the best of all three. Same story, yet again: It was a nice jacket, but not THE ONE. There was something missing and I was wanting more. At this point, I told myself that I should just be happy and enjoy the FS Dubow. I was done with flight jackets, reduced my activity on VLJ to lurking and moved on to more fulfilling things in my life.

About a week or so ago, I noticed @Silver Surfer 's ad for his Aero 38-1711-P, one of my "Grail" patterns that checked all but two of my boxes (I wasn't going to spend $1200 with an overseas company, wait for it to be produced & deal with all of the hassles & uncertainty with shipping & duties.) SS's jacket was nearly new, in my size range, here in the US & priced very reasonably. After much (but not too much) deliberation, I took a calculated risk, made him an offer & received the jacket in 2 days.

The jacket was just as described and fits me reasonably well in its new, stiff, unworn condition and will be perfect when it gets broken in & the hide softens. My adventure has a storybook ending- I now have THE ONE in nearly new & unworn condition, it fits, was reasonably priced & I received it immediately. The journey has ended as my search is now over.

What I can tell you from my experience is: if you are patient and keep trying, you will eventually find what you are looking for. Let your desires & measurements be known to the VLJ membership. They are a very helpful bunch, will look out for you & help you find YOUR ONE. They just might even have it hanging in their closet, waiting for a new owner.

Best of luck in your search!

JimO

 

[Wedge417]

The big caveat here - and it's a very BIG caveat - is that if you are even slightly on the tall side you can forget about Platon's offering.

If you're one of the lucky shorter chaps in the sweet zone then definitely give the Platon a go, otherwise forget it.

Thank you again for all your precious input.

Height wise I'm lucky (I guess) I'm on the short side. Just about 5'7 or 170cm.

If I refer to tailor measurements, as per Platon's website:

Shoulder circumference 50'5" or 129cm

Chest in between sizes 43" or 110cm

Waist 39" or 100cm

Which as always puts me in between sizes between a 42 and a 44.

If any of you have experience with the 42 and 44 sizes from Platon I'd be grateful if could share.

Also and I apologize for the silly question but how does A-2s normally behave in time. Do they rather have a tendency to shrink or to expand morphing on the owner's shape?