Things to look for when buying an original jacket.

[B-Man2]

As all you know, the Show of Shows is an exceptional place to find vintage original jackets of all types. Unfortunately, as I walked thru the show I was really surprised to find that the average sizes of most of the jackets was 36-38 with an occasional size 40 in the mix . As I was looking thru a rack of jackets , I couldn’t believe my eyes when I found a size 46 Poughkeepsie A2. At first glance, the jacket looked to be in rough shape but it was clearly an original that with some tender loving care and restoration could be salvaged and made into a nice daily wearer. So a number of times I’ve used the analogy that buying a jacket from eBay or off the internet without having it in hand, is like stepping into the center of a dark puddle of water, you never know how deep that puddle is until your in the center of it and it’s too late to change your course or plan . So For the newer members I decided to use this Poughkeepsie A2 as a classic example of just how this all applies . In this case I actually had the jacket in hand, and as I looked at it and made some quick mental calculations of what it was going to cost to restore this jacket, I considered it a good investment . I could save a vintage A2 and in the process eventually either wear it or sell it to someone who was looking for a good wearable size 46 A2. I carefully assessed what was needed and as you’ll see in the photos below all the repairs were reasonable and would probably cost between $500-600. The seller wanted $800. for the jacket, but after some honest discussions on what was needed he lowered his price to $650.00 . So basically I’m looking at about $1250. for an original wearable A2. So here are the photos and you can judge for yourself, but for the new guys I’ll let you know this jacket is a trap and the puddle is very deep. Most importantly this is why you should be careful when buying an original from the internet without actually having the jacket in front of you. Check the photos

 

[B-Man2]

 

[B-Man2]

So now you’ve seen the jacket . It needs a complete zip change , new period knits , a complete relining, some leather treatment rejuvenation for the outside rough spots .
So all fixable right ?
Wrong it’s a nightmare .
Whoever replaced the original knits with the wrong knits took approximately 1 and 1/2 inches off the length of the sleeves. When I tried the jacket on I immediately saw that the sleeves had been cut down. Sadly I had to walk away from this one, but It was a lesson for me to follow my own advise that I had learned a long time ago. I hope that the newer guys here, who may be interested in originals keep things like this in mind and always try to have the jacket in hand when deciding to make a purchase of an original vintage jacket . Unless of course you purchase one from a member here .
Cheers

 

[Chandler]

And damn -- that wire hanger!

 

[Silver Surfer]

A must read for newbies. A clear and honest assessment, Burt. Too bad about the shortened sleeves, other wise it could have been a reasonable resto project.

 

[Pa12]

So now you’ve seen the jacket . It needs a complete zip change , new period knits , a complete relining, some leather treatment rejuvenation for the outside rough spots .
So all fixable right ?
Wrong it’s a nightmare .
Whoever replaced the original knits with the wrong knits took approximately 1 and 1/2 inches off the length of the sleeves. When I tried the jacket on I immediately saw that the sleeves had been cut down. Sadly I had to walk away from this one, but It was a lesson for me to follow my own advise that I had learned a long time ago. I hope that the newer guys here, who may be interested in originals keep things like this in mind and always try to have the jacket in hand when deciding to make a purchase of an original vintage jacket . Unless of course you purchase one from a member here .
Cheers

Bummer. Close but no cigar

 

[Dumpster D]

So now you’ve seen the jacket . It needs a complete zip change , new period knits , a complete relining, some leather treatment rejuvenation for the outside rough spots .
So all fixable right ?
Wrong it’s a nightmare .
Whoever replaced the original knits with the wrong knits took approximately 1 and 1/2 inches off the length of the sleeves. When I tried the jacket on I immediately saw that the sleeves had been cut down. Sadly I had to walk away from this one, but It was a lesson for me to follow my own advise that I had learned a long time ago. I hope that the newer guys here, who may be interested in originals keep things like this in mind and always try to have the jacket in hand when deciding to make a purchase of an original vintage jacket . Unless of course you purchase one from a member here .
Cheers

(Most people would beg to differ with me about this, but I'm a man with a mind like concrete about this...All mixed up and permanently set)

Here's a thought...Leave it alone, keep it original or there will be nothing original left that hasn't been 'restored' or sawed in half by some BOZO with a youtube Channel.

Just my 2 cents. If I get an original, I'm looking for a rat's nest. I want GRIME!!! Distressed and cracking finish!!! Rotted stitching even!! The smells, the stale aroma of engine oil. The residual agent orange and microorganisms, everything that goes with it. You want a nice wearable one that smells fresh? there's plenty of 1:1 quality made repro's for that.

Moth holes, blown cuffs and worn out liner and all. Damn it!! That's what I LIKE!!! That's what makes it, you lose that, you lose the whole charm and character of the thing.

Agreeably an original Jacket can be properly restored for the right price, by the right person, but that should be as a last resort, not every jacket should be tampered with, or the magic is lost. It really really depends.

I don't want a Jacket someone else tried to restore and failed miserably, that's about the bottom line for me.

Otherwise you wind up with a 'Monkey christ' looking fresco most of the time...The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

This video warms my heart (Jack Spratt the Ball turret gunner, original Alley Oop A-2 jacket)

 

[P-47 thunderbolt]

I think a2 jackets nowadays are artifacts rather than fashion.
In my view it seems a real shame to replace a liner unless it's all but shreds.
That liner is original and went on the same missions/ events as the shell.
You wouldn't throw away a helmet liner and put in a repro just because it had a crack in it.
I'm at the point that I'd only wear an original if it was already a write off, if it had already been hashed about with and anything I do to it would be an improvement. I have a rag of a Roughwear...but you can see that the liner was replaced before it was depot redyed. It also has a strange replacement pocket - but on investigation, this was done before the redye too.
Theres no way I'd replace these parts as that is the history of the piece and the reason it still exists today.
My two cents worth

 

[917_k]

I think a2 jackets nowadays are artifacts rather than fashion.

I see this said a lot about original A-2 and B-3 jackets and whilst it’s undoubtedly increasingly true, part of the reason so many people still want to be able to wear them is because there’s otherwise not a lot your average collector can do with them.

Unless you’ve got a lot of space, they’re not easy to display and your display options require investing in the right mounting (especially if you want to prevent the jacket deteriorating further). The alternative is pack them away and treat as a future investment, but then there’s no real immediate fun in owning this stuff.

 

[taiAtari]

Also, historically, unless there's a particular person/ story connected to it with provenance, it's a mass produced item of which there are plenty of examples being preserved in (museal) collections. I wouldn't personally mind if people do (preferably sympathetic) restorations for wearing. It would damage potential resale value to private collectors who'd want to own a piece of history of course.

 

[P-47 thunderbolt]

The flip side is - these things aren't going to last forever anyway....just like us, so enjoy them while you can!

In fact I do plan on wearing a non description original when the weather suits. Would only be for a stroll or to a museum or something, I wouldn't wear it where it would get damaged.

Especially considering that they are an organic material and are only ever on the path of deterioration.

 

[B-Man2]

(Most people would beg to differ with me about this, but I'm a man with a mind like concrete about this...All mixed up and permanently set)

Here's a thought...Leave it alone, keep it original or there will be nothing original left that hasn't been 'restored' or sawed in half by some BOZO with a youtube Channel.

Just my 2 cents. If I get an original, I'm looking for a rat's nest. I want GRIME!!! Distressed and cracking finish!!! Rotted stitching even!! The smells, the stale aroma of engine oil. The residual agent orange and microorganisms, everything that goes with it. You want a nice wearable one that smells fresh? there's plenty of 1:1 quality made repro's for that.

Moth holes, blown cuffs and worn out liner and all. Damn it!! That's what I LIKE!!! That's what makes it, you lose that, you lose the whole charm and character of the thing.

Agreeably an original Jacket can be properly restored for the right price, by the right person, but that should be as a last resort, not every jacket should be tampered with, or the magic is lost. It really really depends.

I don't want a Jacket someone else tried to restore and failed miserably, that's about the bottom line for me.

Otherwise you wind up with a 'Monkey christ' looking fresco most of the time...The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

This video warms my heart (Jack Spratt the Ball turret gunner, original Alley Oop A-2 jacket)

I think a2 jackets nowadays are artifacts rather than fashion.
In my view it seems a real shame to replace a liner unless it's all but shreds.
That liner is original and went on the same missions/ events as the shell.
You wouldn't throw away a helmet liner and put in a repro just because it had a crack in it.
I'm at the point that I'd only wear an original if it was already a write off, if it had already been hashed about with and anything I do to it would be an improvement. I have a rag of a Roughwear...but you can see that the liner was replaced before it was depot redyed. It also has a strange replacement pocket - but on investigation, this was done before the redye too.
Theres no way I'd replace these parts as that is the history of the piece and the reason it still exists today.
My two cents worth

Understand both of your opinions and no disagreements .But the purpose of the post was to help new guys who might be interested in buying an original jacket to have it in hand and look at it because sometimes photos don’t tell the whole story. I had no idea the sleeves had been cut down so short that they didn’t come close to a normal size 46 sleeve until I tried it on . Regardless of how you would prefer to wear your jacket i.e. to restore it or not to restore it …… if you bought it without actually having it or knowing who’s selling it and it doesn’t fit the way it should, then you’ve lost a bunch of money on it . The sleeve knits should have been a give away. Look how long they were.

 

[caddyd]

Condition is important but size is a factor and what to do is up to you.

 

[Abyss]

Thank you for sharing and the discussion that followed - very helpful!

 

[mulceber]

The flip side is - these things aren't going to last forever anyway....just like us, so enjoy them while you can!

In fact I do plan on wearing a non description original when the weather suits. Would only be for a stroll or to a museum or something, I wouldn't wear it where it would get damaged.

Especially considering that they are an organic material and are only ever on the path of deterioration.

This. The remaining A-2 jackets are going to turn into dust anyway. Sure, they'll last a bit longer if you don't wear them, but there's something to be said for enjoying them while they're here.

 

[Dumpster D]

Also, historically, unless there's a particular person/ story connected to it with provenance, it's a mass produced item of which there are plenty of examples being preserved in (museal) collections. I wouldn't personally mind if people do (preferably sympathetic) restorations for wearing. It would damage potential resale value to private collectors who'd want to own a piece of history of course.

Ah, yet...Even so...with the right kind of eyes, the most plain and 'mass produced' looking original wartime Jackets are not without some Artistic Charm that should be appreciated in their own subtlety, which is somehow a happy accident that is still fashionable today, reflecting back the greatness of the American industrial empire in its golden era.

The Wear and tear to me represents originality, Flight time, being there and back.

I quote Frosty T. Snowman when I say:

There must have been some magic in that old flight jacket you found.

 

[Dumpster D]

The remaining A-2 jackets are going to turn into dust anyway.

 

[Dumpster D]

if you bought it without actually having it or knowing who’s selling it and it doesn’t fit the way it should, then you’ve lost a bunch of money on it . The sleeve knits should have been a give away. Look how long they were.

Live and learn they say.

 

[taiAtari]

Ah, yet...Even so...with the right kind of eyes, the most plain and 'mass produced' looking original wartime Jackets are not without some Artistic Charm that should be appreciated in their own subtlety, which is somehow a happy accident that is still fashionable today, reflecting back the greatness of the American industrial empire in its golden era.

The Wear and tear to me represents originality, Flight time, being there and back.

I quote Frosty T. Snowman when I say:

There must have been some magic in that old flight jacket you found.

You're absolutely right, they're nice and evocative historical artefacts. I was just responding to the 'need' to preserve these from a broader historical perspective. The fact plenty are preserved in professional museum collections and conditions underlines their significance. It's just that this also means there's no urgent need to preserve an unadorned jacket without known provenance 'as is' from a vulnerable cultural heritage perspective. Of course there can be value in keeping it original as a private colector, but I see no problem if someone would want to wear one or make changes in order to.

 

[Dumpster D]

Of course there can be value in keeping it original as a private colector, but I see no problem if someone would want to wear one or make changes in order to.

All good, please don't get me wrong.

I'm just playing the Devils advocate here...

Would you let someone change the Mona Lisa?

Original Jackets are each their own work of Art as they stand IMHO.

Why bother tailoring an 80 year old jacket you might only wear from time to time, when you can go get a brand new custom one made to your size? I mean, if you have a whole collection of vintage jackets they're all going to have their own fit.

I don't know, apologies for derailing this whole thread once again, but if a Jacket doesn't fit me, I don't blame the Jacket. It's really my own fault because *I* don't fit the Jacket.

What if the Jacket is so special I can't pass it on, and want to wear it but it's too small, then it's time to get on my bicycle and ride a couple hours every day for at least three months, and change my lifestyle to be more active and that includes more than just diet, I change my whole attitude at that point. I live in a Jacket, until it becomes part of me, you know? I just don't see myself doing that with an original, I'm going to baby that thing and it's basically more of a 'cosplay' item rather than a living extension of my physical being. It was someone else's Jacket first, I gotta respect that.

When I eventually have to pass on my Jackets to some kid, I wouldn't want him to mess around with it and chop it up or part it out or 'restore' it. There's gotta be some people who get that 'lived in' Jacket mentality, especially when it comes to leathers.


Anyway, not trying to argue or disagree, everything is cool, it's just how I see it. I'm only speaking for myself here.

I don't honestly know what to look for in an original jacket if I find one, then it's chosen me. Not the other way around, it's simple fate and it's out of my hands to control.

I guess if the expression is 'if the shoe fits'... in this case it's Jackets, so there it is.