So how much does a high end repro REALLY cost ?

[Anonymous]

With the prices for high-end repros approaching (and in a few cases over) the $1,000 mark ? I wonder if anyone would like to hazzard a guess as to what that cost is made up of ?

Cost of procuring hide .............
Metalware ............................ (probably not a lot)
Knits ................................... (even less)
Assembly .............................
Profit ..................................
Overheads (office etc)

I suppose we could add in publicity as there's got to be a cost per jacket for websites, brochures etc.

The reason I'm curious is that on paper the A-2 is a simple design for $1,000.

Dave

 

[Peter Graham]

Good question Dave and something I've often pondered myself.

 

[havocpaul]

A fair question. I would expect the cost of the various hides to be the most expensive component, in the case of Eastman and GW they are importing the hides for (most of) their jackets and current poor exchange rates, taxes, duties etc will have pushed the costs up in the last few years. Labour costs are also a large cost to factor in any business, John Chapman may be working alone but he needs to pay himself. Research and development may also be a consideration, to copy any original contract well would have to involve sourcing an original jacket and taking it apart to get the correct 'plans'. As to what profit margin they work on is anyone's guess. My backgorund is in the music business and book trade where retailers profits are around 20-30% (higher for large bulk-buying companies); the retailer in those businesses are the final piece of a large 'cake', manufacturer/printer, publisher/record company, wholesaler etc all have their cut: these don't come into the equation with ELC or GW or Aero of course. The high prices are charged for these high-end repros because they are offering a specialist, often unique, and bespoke service and product. In WW2 the jackets were made in large factories churning them out in thousands, I still believe this could have been done in the past with repros but the likes of Avirex failed dismally by cutting corners, getting detail and quality wrong and factoring manufacture out to the cheap foreign factories, that's where the likes of Aero and Eastman and RMNZ found a major gap in the market several decades ago.

 

[John Lever]

Sheepskin costs between £3.50 to £5.00 per square foot. A typical RAF jacket uses about 40 square feet, so that would give about £200 for sheepskin, add on £10 for a zip, £10 for other bits makes it £220 ?
That leaves about £300 for labour, overheads, tax, profit and shipping.
Compared to the profit margins in jeans manufacture, that's not much.

 

[pipvh]

Someone like John Chapman would also have spent a fair amount of capital on his equipment, which needs to be paid back.

Overheads are always higher than you'd expect - as someone who used to be in the restaurant business, I learned that one the hard way :evil:

 

[Anonymous]

Someone like John Chapman would also have spent a fair amount of capital on his equipment, which needs to be paid back.

That's very true Pip. But even Eastman must have to replace equipment. More of it if you think of how many people work for him. Never having been to Ivybridge, I've often wondered how many people Gary employs and what they all do.

I've also never quite reconciled whether being a one-man band is a bonus or drawback when it comes to finances. If John is ill, then jackets don't get made. Same when he's on holiday. BUT National Insurance contributions for an employer for his employees is a cripler too. As are stakeholder pensions etc. And while John might be happy for now to take little holiday time, he can't keep that up for ever and Eastman must allow his staff 4-5 weeks each. When I was working at CERN, I was in charge of a team of 6 but with everyone getting 8 weeks holiday per year, it was in reality only ever a 5-man team full time if the collective holiday time was thrown in.

As Paul said, A-2s of the period were pretty much thrown together in double-quick time. Why can't they be done so now ? Or are they ? Perhaps it is materials that are the main cost ??

Does anyone have an idea of how the cost compares against average earnings for both period and current A-2's ? Or are they like Rolexes: their cost has increased above average earnings / inflation ?

Dave

 

[havocpaul]

Eastman say that original RW A-2's were manufactured for $10 each in WW2 (not sure what the Air Corp were charged per unit), earnings quoted on a US home front site are "In 1944, skilled female workers made an average weekly salary of $32.21, while skilled male workers earned $54.65 weekly". As for servicemen, a British private received 14 Shillings a week whereas American troops serving overseas received £3.8s.9d which included overseas allowance (British troops didn't get that)...a massive difference!

 

[deeb7]

As long as the repro makers are in profit enough to stay in the business, I'm happy.

Then I can focus on whatever I do best, so that I'm able to pay them.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree David but find the irony of the cost of a repro of a 'cheap' period jacket costing several times more than i earn a week whereas the original cost half the average weekly wage according to Paul rather amusing.

I'm not trying to work out what John or Gary earn. They are entrpreneurs and good luck to them for taking the risks that they do. But I am curious as to what the main cost is. R&D / hide sourcing etc, etc. I'd like to know why the cost is so high. If it's a high profit margin then so be it. The choice to buy is mine and mine alone.

There are a lot of us mere mortals who find the costs becoming prohibitive as has been said a lot lately. Obviously there are those with deeper pockets for whom the cost is not a big deal. It is becoming a rich man's hobby. (Now where did I put my copy of Marx ? :lol: )

And surely you can't be saying that you would prefer to pay $1,000 rather than say for example $600 ? Especially if you found out the actual cost to produce were say $100. (I know that's not a realistic figure but where is the divisor between 'acceptable profit and profiteering?)

Dave

 

[nogbat]

is it true a br a2 from japan is 14 hundred pounds

 

[John Lever]

is it true a br a2 from japan is 14 hundred pounds

No, it's 14 hundred pounds plus duty of an additional 300 or so.

 

[Atticus]

I would point out that much of the cost of making a high-end repro is incurred by compensating the maker for his knowledge of how to make that high-end repro. Or, to paraphrase an iconic US president, a (high-end repro maker's) time and knowledge (about A-2s) is his stock in trade.

I would argue that there is a normal rate of return in the repro A-2 market, just as there are normal rates of return in other markets. Any profit above that normal rate of return is compensation for the maker's level of expertise....or, his stock in trade.

AF

 

[bseal]

Atticus, is that another one of those Bushisms?

"I know how hard it is to put food on your family."

--- Nashua, New Hampshire, January 27, 2000.


On a more somber note, well said.

 

[deeb7]

I agree David but find the irony of the cost of a repro of a 'cheap' period jacket costing several times more than i earn a week whereas the original cost half the average weekly wage according to Paul rather amusing.

Okay ... but it's not the same thing. The original jackets were made in volume, and more on a production line basis, not individually. I'd prefer to compare the cost of a repro today, with the cost of an original today.

And surely you can't be saying that you would prefer to pay $1,000 rather than say for example $600 ? Especially if you found out the actual cost to produce were say $100. (I know that's not a realistic figure but where is the divisor between 'acceptable profit and profiteering?)

No, I'd be happy to pay less, but knowing the cost isn't going to change anything. Skilled labour is probably the highest cost component, and the unit cost will be different for each maker, and for each year.

 

[John Lever]

If you compare similar runs of volume and exclusivity, designer leather jackets, probably not that well made, perhaps in the far east, then the repros are very good value.
Ralph Lauren offer a kind of Anj-4, made in China, they are much more expensive than a better made Eastman.

 

[DiamondDave]

Point of Order...

A new Ford Explorer costs what.... $42,000 USD.

As of the year 2000... the "Hard Costs" were right
around $7500 USD...


assuming that you could buy ALL
of those parts.... could YOU build the car?

Just sayin'

DD

 

[Atticus]

Atticus, is that another one of those Bushisms?

"I know how hard it is to put food on your family."

--- Nashua, New Hampshire, January 27, 2000.


On a more somber note, well said.

Probably is a Bushism. I guess I was kinda nerding out...regressing back to my days before law school, when I was teaching microeconomics to undergrads at good ol' East Carolina University.

But I really do think that someone like John, who has invested years of direct and indirect research into the making of A-2s, should be able to depreciate the cost of that research so as to reduce his pure profit. Most R&D intensive companies are able to recapture their research costs through scheduled depreciation. Of course, that depreciation would appear on the bottom half of the balance sheet just as would other manufacuring costs such as materials, labor, energy, overhead.

AF

 

[442RCT]

To put things in perspective, if you cruise ebay for leather jackets in general, you'll find many leather jackets with prices far in excess of what is charged for a quality A-2 reproduction. What makes these jackets worth the asking price :?: Ya got me there :roll: since I personally don't think ANY new leather jacket is worth $ 2,000-5,000.

http://cgi.ebay.com/One-kind-classic-31 ... 414e468f88
http://cgi.ebay.com/SMIRNOFF-LEATHER-JA ... 255a0b49ea
http://cgi.ebay.com/GUCCIS-MENS-BLACK-L ... 5d26e46abb
http://cgi.ebay.com/DOLCE-GABBANA-AMAZI ... 19bd09606a
http://cgi.ebay.com/Authentic-Belstaff- ... 2a076f084b
Would you want to buy a $1500 jacket from someone who calls themselves "faktory"

http://cgi.ebay.com/AUTH-NEW-DIOR-HOMME ... 3a5293c05a
The design of this last jacket makes even a slim guy look pregnant... :lol:

 

[Silver Dollar]

To put things in perspective, if you cruise ebay for leather jackets in general, you'll find many leather jackets with prices far in excess of what is charged for a quality A-2 reproduction. What makes these jackets worth the asking price :?: Ya got me there :roll: since I personally don't think ANY new leather jacket is worth $ 2,000-5,000.

http://cgi.ebay.com/One-kind-classic-31 ... 414e468f88
http://cgi.ebay.com/SMIRNOFF-LEATHER-JA ... 255a0b49ea
http://cgi.ebay.com/GUCCIS-MENS-BLACK-L ... 5d26e46abb
http://cgi.ebay.com/DOLCE-GABBANA-AMAZI ... 19bd09606a
http://cgi.ebay.com/Authentic-Belstaff- ... 2a076f084b
Would you want to buy a $1500 jacket from someone who calls themselves "faktory"

http://cgi.ebay.com/AUTH-NEW-DIOR-HOMME ... 3a5293c05a
The design of this last jacket makes even a slim guy look pregnant... :lol:

No way!!!! The prices of those jackets aren't crazy, they're pure psychopathic !!!. I don't even like most of them.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, I don't disagree with anything anyone has said so far. And certainly not the skill and R&D costs as there is no doubting the costs of re-learning the original knowledge and for individuals of companies gaining the skills needed to actually make the jackets.

I was trying to get a handle on the material costs against said indefinables. I'm not some ~commie trying to complain about capitalism. I do very well out of it myself The point was that Aero make a high quality set of jackets and in a very difficult to manhandle and bullet proof hide and do it custom for less than half the cost a a high end repro. I'm curious as to why. Curious and not resentful !!!

As to buying the parts and assembling myself. That misses the point; we are probably most of us specialists in our fields and i would no more try to make an A-2 or a crusher as a rocket. I have neither the wit nor the time nor the interest to acquire such skills. Easier to buy what I want as long as I can afford to as to get those skills is not cost effective unless one is going to go into production. Besides, the cost of the parts for a car are based on massive production numbers and we are talking about small numbers and high skill sets.

I lack what it would take to make something identical or near identical time after time after time so all credit to those who have the skills, the balls to put it into practice and the patience to deal with a load of us OCD detail freaks

Dave