Reproduction RAF flying clothing, a bonus or a curse ?

[Lebensgefahr]

I thought that I would start this thread In response to the news that Lewis Leathers are to reproduce a Prestige flying suit and also in response to a thread on another forum about the reproduction of type 19 microphones.

While I appreciate that this is probably contentious issue, my question is are reproduction items a good or a bad thing ?

While I accept that reproductions are here to stay (that is not say that I agree with them) my question is how accurate do they have to be as the better they are the more likely it is that someone will try to pass them off as genuine.
For example, when 32 pattern Mae Wests were first reproduced they were very easy to spot as the insides were either not rubberised or were rubberised in black but the later ones were rubberised in green, my point being why do they need this level of detail when this part is clearly not seen. To my mind this is an unnecessary detail which makes life that much easier for unscrupulous sellers if they tried to pass it off as original. While I am not accusing the manufacturers of being dishonest I don`t see why this level of detail is needed because whether the item is being used for re-enactment or to fill a hole in some ones collection the item is a reproduction and that is all it will ever be.

While I appreciate that most markings could possibly be removed or hidden etc, why are all reproduction items not marked/stamped Reproduction in large letters on the inside where it will not show when worn or displayed ?

There are more and more reproduction items coming on the market all the time and this is only going to muddy the waters even more.
While this is less of a problem for experienced collectors (although no ones is infallible) , people who have less experience may well get caught out which could potentially prove to be an expensive lesson.

From what I have seen of the reproduction RAF prestige suits that are already on the market, the general form of the suit is not too bad but there are numerous mistakes which in my mind is a good thing.

While I personally think reproduction items in someones collection are okay because not everyone can afford original items and they would like an example of the type of item used I will play devils advocate and quote someone who is well known in the aviation collecting world who said "real collectors do not fill holes in their collections with reproductions, they preserve history through items that were there, would an art collector hang up a Xerox copy of a Picasso to fill a hole because he could not afford an original" ?

I should say that I do not believe that reproductions affect the price of originals, the only one who would be affected would be the collector who bought an item believing it to be original.

To take this to another level, there is an aviation museum where at first glance one cannot help but be impressed by their flying clothing collection but on closer inspection four out of the six 32 pattern Mae Wests are reproduction (and it could even be five reproductions but one is very hard to tell without being able to handle it), eleven out of the fifteen D type oxygen masks/type 19 microphones are reproductions and their black prestige suit isn`t right either which tends to put a bit of a different complexion on things. While I still applaud what the museum stands for one can`t help but feel a bit cheated. When I visit a museum I want to see original kit not a cabinet full of reproductions.

I thought that this might be an interesting subject and while I appreciate that the collecting and re-enacting fraternities will probably have views that are polar opposites to one another I wonder for instance how a re-enactor might feel to go to a museum only to find a lot of the items on display are reproduction, pleased or disappointed ?

Would the world have been a better place without reproductions, I think it would have made life a lot simpler.

Food for thought ?
LG :?

 

[jack31916]

Hi LG,

First of all, congratulations with your wonderful collection. You've probably started out collecting long time ago ( in the good times ) or have some money to spend

I don't think your point is only restricted by reproduction RAF flying clothing but to reproductions in general. For example, a well worn A-2 jacket from GW (or other high end reproduction jackets) could be easily mistaken for an original. Same goes for paratroop helmets, Denison smocks etc.

As a former collector and active re-enactor (or living historian as some people want to be called) I think there's nothing wrong with good quality reproductions. Why buy, wear and use something that is obvious a repro to anybody? Reproductions fill in a gap of availability and affordability or just to save (one of a kind) originals. For example the museum you mentioned: if they want to show a fully equiped bomber crew or several mannequins properly dressed up just for the impression of how it looked back then and they don't have the sources or resources for original stuff, I don't see any harm in showing quality reproductions as long as it's not being shown or told as original.

The real problem is that some people (alas often traders too) deliberate sell reproductions for originals to people with to little knowledge who are to eager to buy. The German collecting scene have been affected by the phenomenon 'reproduction' as long as I know. Internetshops and internetsales are a good source for that...

From a collector's point of view a (good or top) reproduction is not wanted nor needed. For the re-enactor's / living historian's / enthousiast's point of view it's a welcome alternative.

And yes, life would be easier without reproductions.

For what it's worth and regards,

Jack

 

[Andrew]

I'll add later when I have time LG but in the meantime I'm sure you've seen this but for the benefit of others read this thread through to see how far faking will go.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/180748/m ... d+wager%21

 

[flyboy]

If you are neither a collector or a "living historian" - but only likes some of the stuff from back then: Irvin jackets, flying boots or even a prestige suit, I see no problem what so ever having a large REPRODUCTION stamped on the inside somewhere. As long as it doesn't spoil the look. And when the repro is very precise and very close to the real thing.
Luckily a lot of repros are easily recognized as being just what they are - bad or halfhearted reproductions.
And a lot of people don't even care. And will not pay the price for a accurate repro either.

If you are a "living historian" you obviously want your kit to be as accurate as possible - but still, a large REPRODUCTION on the inside wouldn't spoil the effect.
If you are a serious collector, why buy reproductions at all?
That being said, I perfectly understands why some museums buys repro gear, just in order to show the public - who might not all be experts - how aircrews were dressed back then. To me it's perfectly ok, if the gear is accurate in every detail.

Finally I can easily understand why Lebensgefahr - having one of the best collections, I have ver seen - raises the question. It must be bloody awful having collected and payed lots of cash through many, many years on original stuff only to realize again and again how some guys tries to push reproductions as originals.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

I've been buying / collecting / selling for close to twenty years now. I have mistakenly purchased among other things, a repro Sykes knife, German Badges, U.S. Wing badges, and a few squadron patches. The repro / fake stuff was out there long before me, is now, and will keep coming long after me. There's a big difference in the intention of repros as opposed to fakes, but essentially they are all repros and the only way to avoid them is knowledge,

You can be had in just about anything, getting the brakes done in my car was quoted at 1100- from one guy last year and another guy did them for 570- a week later. This kind of thing is par for the course with auto repair and usually happens to the ladies due to lack of knowledge. Same thing with collecting. In a perfect world all fakes and repros would be labeled as such and all sketchy auto mechanics would have a "crook" tattoo on their forehead. But it's not a perfect world. I believe that the thousands I've spent over the years on repros, fakes, fantasies, and just downright paid way too much is just like paying for an education. Fortunately my genuine passion for the stuff led to hard work studying, purchase of a few good books, and endless internet research. So these days I make few mistakes if any.

I see the results of my efforts out there in the field when my competition walks right by 1000- worth of military items marked 20 bucks, but about knocks people over trying to beat me to a 30- 1980's helmet marked 50 bucks. Now this is based on the wide range of random items found at yard sales, swap meets, and estate liquidations. If serious about collecting a certain subject in particular there should be no question what so ever because the information is out there. It just depends on how determined you are to know everything about it. As a collector of anything it is a responsibility for yourself to endeavor expertise, and any money spent on bogus stuff is dues paid.

 

[interbak]

The answer is simple. The buying public demands more and more accurate repo's and is willing to pay for them.
You can buy an off the rack flying jacket in "the spirit of the original" for a few hundred dollars, or spend a grand plus for a stitch by stitch reproduction, and the high end repo's are selling very well. Does it create an ethical dilemma, maybe, it's the market we play in.

Brian

 

[a2jacketpatches]

The answer is simple. The buying public demands more and more accurate repo's and is willing to pay for them.
You can buy an off the rack flying jacket in "the spirit of the original" for a few hundred dollars, or spend a grand plus for a stitch by stitch reproduction, and the high end repo's are selling very well. Does it create an ethical dilemma, maybe, it's the market we play in.

Brian

Ethical dilemma with fakes most certainly, with reproductions, most certainly not. In many cases as clearly seen right here on this forum, mall jackets, high end to low end reproduction jackets, and many other questionable items are posted regularly for all to comment and joke about. In many cases but not all, it is just some Ebayer who sells anything and everything with no idea but the label stating A-2. They do a quick 2 minute search with high hopes and there you are, a 1500- mistake for some rookie. Of course, there are the sellers intentionally try to fake. The suckers that fall for it are just as guilty in either case because of their high hopes and lack of knowledge. They create the market. Ebay has made it difficult for anything to be done about it but a few emails from us to the seller will prompt an honest guy to revise or remove the listing. Unfortunately, we cannot advise buyers and the only simple answer / solution is knowledge.

 

[Lebensgefahr]

Hello Jack

Thank you for the kind comments, I have been collecting for a long time and it is only since moving house that I have been able to get everything out and put it on display. I had nearly as much fun doing that as I did collecting it. I don`t think it would be possible now to build a large collection from scratch because it would cost a huge amount of money and secondly the kit just isn`t out there anymore. Even items which were commonplace a few years ago are seldom seen these days. Unless someone already has an established collection then I think the most people can hope to achieve is a few choice pieces. I know I certainly couldn`t afford todays prices.

With regard to only mentioning RAF reproductions I can only talk about that which I know (which isn`t much) and while I am aware of the reproductions in the other collecting spheres I don`t know anything about them.

Your point about re-enactors wanting high end reproductions is fair enough and it is something as you rightly say that collectors will never agree with but that is a discussion that could go on for ever with no right or wrong answer.

With regard to reproductions in museums, personally I don`t agree with it, for my money museums are there to preserve history and also to educate. For me personally the whole point of collecting original WW2 items is because of the history associated with that item. While a reproduction will look like the item it is supposed to represent it has none of the history of the original item.
I fully appreciate that not everyone can afford original items and they want a reproduction so they have an example of what the item represents but in a museum I don`t agree with it.
It is interesting to hear your and Sorens point about a representative display and if a reproduction is used in a museum I think it should be clearly labelled as such but when the reproductions start exceeding the original items I think things are going too far.
Another reason I am against reproductions in museums is because if they are not labelled as such (which none of them are)how are people to learn if they do not have original examples of items to look at. I wonder how many people have bought reproduction 32 pattern Mae Wests thinking that they were original because the one in the museum was exactly the same ?
Something which I do think is unforgivable is when things are labelled up incorrectly, if a museum can`t get it right what chance does anyone else have ?

Andrew, although I don`t contribute to that forum I was aware of the thread you mentioned and the photo is just the tip of the iceberg. Most collectors are aware of what dealers to avoid and happily warn other people of dodgy dealing. As A2jacketpatches says faking items has always been a problem and always will be and only through experience does one learn and hopefully avoid the pitfalls. The internet has not helped as it has pretty much killed military fairs and so people cannot handle items and get a feel for things although I have to say I have picked up a lot of choice items through ebay.
Personally if I want to improve my knowledge of something i ask questions even if I risk making myself look stupid (although that`s not hard) but it seems that a lot of people are reluctant to do that. There is absolutely no substitute for experience.

The trouble with items that supposedly belonged to famous people is how do you prove it, in 99% of cases it`s not true but in 1% the item will be right. I think it`s important when looking at an item to take a step back and evaluate things in the cold light of day and to not let the heart rule the head. I suppose part of the problem is that if someone inexperienced is offered something and they are not sure they don`t want to seek advice and let the cat out of the bag as to the items existence and therefore risk losing it and this is what the unscrupulous sellers rely on. I must say that it never ceases to amaze me the lengths some people go to fake things.
I have comparatively few items with history in my collection and so if I was offered Douglas Baders hat or Guy Gibsons tunic I would be more than a little suspicious.
I must say that while the financial implications of faking things are bad enough I think to fake an item using the identity of someone who gave their life is morally repugnant.
On a lighter note I think if I bought every bit of wreckage that purports to be from a Dambuster Lancaster I would have enough to build one. I particularly like the bits that are photographed in a muddy field, you don`t get better provenance than that !

The programme Fake Britain that was on TV a while ago was quite good and showed the lengths that some people will go to.

I`m really enjoying hearing other peoples views on this subject, especially with regard to reproductions in museums.

LG

 

[flyboy]

Ok let's talk a bit about museums then.
You are right that museums are foremost here to collect, preserve and display originals. Being it art or flying gear. No doubt!

But I also think there might be some exceptions.
At Duxford - in the American wing at least - there are several "replica airplanes" (the P51 is one of them). And I can not see why not. The audience can get a close look at the famous airplanes, get a feel for how they looked, their size and shape etc. All in the name of - let's call it - education.
And if - just if - the new exciting "wing" at The Battle of Britain Memorial outside Folkestone, only gets enough money to finish the building and install their interactive devices, teaching the next generation what it was like, I certainly see no problem, if they choose to show flying gears - partly or altogether - as replica. All in the good cause in my opinion.
Of course it would be grand if they could afford the real thing 100% - but accurate replica is better than nothing.

Interesting subject, by the way!

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Ok let's talk a bit about museums then.
You are right that museums are foremost here to collect, preserve and display originals. Being it art or flying gear. No doubt!

But I also think there might be some exceptions.
At Duxford - in the American wing at least - there are several "replica airplanes" (the P51 is one of them). And I can not see why not. The audience can get a close look at the famous airplanes, get a feel for how they looked, their size and shape etc. All in the name of - let's call it - education.
And if - just if - the new exciting "wing" at The Battle of Britain Memorial outside Folkestone, only gets enough money to finish the building and install their interactive devices, teaching the next generation what it was like, I certainly see no problem, if they choose to show flying gears - partly or altogether - as replica. All in the good cause in my opinion.
Of course it would be grand if they could afford the real thing 100% - but accurate replica is better than nothing.

Interesting subject, by the way!

Have to agree with that, reference for the collector is available in great detail on the web and in books as well as collaborating with other collectors. I'd guess that a majority of people visiting a museum are not collectors and would benefit from just a good representation of the real deal.

 

[Lebensgefahr]

I suppose that I must be part of a small minority of collectors who like to visit museums and see original items that were there and not a representation. Perhaps I`m just weird ?

I admit that museums need a lot of bulk because lets face it if a museum consisted of only one room then no matter how good it was your average punter would feel cheated but I think it will be a sad day when museums become so full of replicas or representations or whatever you want to call them that they no longer appeal to anyone who has more than a passing interest in the subject.
For me an item that was there has a dimension all of its own and even more so if it has a personal history, a replica no matter how good is just a piece of plastic or metal or whatever, completely soulless in my opinion.

LG

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Let's not take what I said too far, you are not part of a small minority or weird in any way. And I'm pretty sure museums won't ever get so full of replicas that they won't be appealing to us.

But out of a thousand visitors, how many do you think will take close up shots of the zipper on that Irvin Jacket? At least guys like us are able to educate the friend or new collector we brought along because chances are that most of the other people there at the time are tourists and will never give it a second thought.

You know how many guys try to sell me a mall flight jacket thinking it's right up my alley? When I start to explain the difference between mall jackets and WW2 originals and the many repros out there, eyes glaze over and I'm looking at an empty stare. Same situation. MAYBE, a handful of times in a year a guy will recognize my M-41 Jacket. The majority can really use a quality representation as opposed to nothing if originals are not available.

 

[Lebensgefahr]

I wouldn`t be too sure I`m not weird if I were you, you`ve never met me and to be honest I don`t think I`d get a lot of support from my wife

I do agree with you regarding collectors being in the minority and that it is in the interests of the museum to cater for the majority but I do think it`s the thin end of the wedge when a place like Duxford starts getting plastic aeroplanes.

I used to do a display on airshow days at Duxford with a friend of mine many years ago and it always seemed to be popular, so perhaps that`s the answer, I should open a museum !

LG

 

[flyboy]

Damn right! The real thing always is the best and beats everything. To us at least!
And damn right yes! You should open a museum. At Duxford. Or talk to the guys at Folkestone...

 

[a2jacketpatches]

I wouldn`t be too sure I`m not weird if I were you, you`ve never met me and to be honest I don`t think I`d get a lot of support from my wife

I do agree with you regarding collectors being in the minority and that it is in the interests of the museum to cater for the majority but I do think it`s the thin end of the wedge when a place like Duxford starts getting plastic aeroplanes.

I used to do a display on airshow days at Duxford with a friend of mine many years ago and it always seemed to be popular, so perhaps that`s the answer, I should open a museum !

LG

Funny you mention plastic planes, I used to build models for the Cockpit Shop when I was a kid (Avirex back in the early 80's) This was the infancy of my art career and what eventually led to my repro patch business. The place was like a small museum. And Battleship Cove as well, they are displayed inside the USS Massachusetts in Fall River, MA.

 

[FtrPlt]

Thought I'd throw in my 2p:
I've seen the cries of "repros should be marked as such" for decades. Pick any era or field and you'll find the same comments.

Look around you. There are reproductions of everything, everywhere. Furniture, jewelry, clothing, cars, airplanes, etc. We're oblivious to most of them because, to be blunt, we're simply not paying attention.

Narrow the focus down to flight jackets. We extol the virtues of the high-end repros and celebrate the continuing advancements towards the 'perfect' A-2 jacket. Last I checked, none of these are marked with large "Repro" stamps in out-of-way places on them. Why? Because in our pursuit of the perfect jacket, what we ultimately want is a new-made original that is indistinguishable from an original. So I ask you. Why should someone equally as passionate about a Prestige Suit, for example, not be entitled to a product with the same high-level of accuracy?

Ultimately, what this comes down to is laziness -- and I use the term with the utmost respect. We do not want to do the legwork to ensure what we're buying is authentic -- be it furniture, jewelry, or flight gear. I've yet to see a single comment suggesting the same type of marking be applied to a repro flight jacket. And that makes us hypocrites.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Well said and I agree 100% Gotta know you're stuff. Like watches? I know all of the names etc. but couldn't spot a repro if my life depended on it. So I don't pick watches unless it's vintage military. Once bought an antique baby carriage (haha) because I thought my wife might like it, rusty metal, looked from the 1920's or something with the perfect look. It was from 2012. Just purchased a Graf Zeppelin token about two weeks ago with a nice patina, modern repro. And the list goes on. The answer to not getting burned on repros? Iphone, research on the road.

 

[Lebensgefahr]

You are both of course right, ultimately it is down to the individual to gain experience and make their own decisions but the internet and books will only take you so far. If you want to gain experience of rare items you need to be able to handle them and talk to the owners as there is no substitute for this. The problem is of course, how does someone who is new to the game find out who owns these sort of things and secondly gain access to them ?
From a personal perspective I am in the fortunate position where I have some very knowledgeable friends who I can ask if I have a question but not everyone has that luxury and as I mentioned earlier I have noticed a distinct reluctance from new or inexperienced collectors to ask questions.
Also I am in the fortunate position where my friends and I all have similar collections and we all have items that the others don`t have and therefore there isn`t much ground that we can`t cover between us.

I suppose that although I don`t like to see fakes/repro`s in museums it is fun in a way to play spot the fake, depressing though.

I purposely only mentioned RAF flying clothing at the start of the thread because that is all I know but also because although flying jackets are flight equipment they also appeal to people who like leather jackets for fashion reasons and don`t want or have originals for whatever reason. RAF flying clothing is not something that you would wear down the high street whereas flying jackets are.

LG

 

[FtrPlt]

While the number of militaria fairs has decreased over the past 15-20 years, this loss in ability to handle items is offset by internet resources -- such as this site -- that allow comments/insight/opinion from dozens to hundreds of collectors of all experience levels rather than one or two friends with you at the show. Plus the quality and quantity of reference books far surpasses what was available in the 1980s/90s.

IMO, requiring manufacturers to mark their items as reproductions (assuming you could ever get this to happen) would contribute exactly nothing to stopping the flow of misrepresented/fraudulent items.

As for flying gear? Those who collect in that sphere are no different than those here with interest in vintage jackets. I'm sure they have their advanced collectors who can tell makers of various flying items by patterns, stitching, etc. And, much like here, I'm sure there are those who want stitch-for-stitch copies of their favorite flying helmet, flight suit, etc.

The issue has never been, and likely never will be, the maker(s) of reproduction items. These items are produced, advertised, and sold for what they are -- reproductions. It's the downstream owner(s) who are the problem.

For Prestige Suits in particular? I seriously doubt any offering by D. Lewis/Lewis Leathers will present much a challenge for collectors. Whatever they produce will be made using modern textiles and techniques. One merely needs to look at their reproduction 1936 pattern flying boots. Wrong materials, wrong construction. Rudimentary knowledge of originals rules them out as repros in less than 1 second. I didn't even require a "Repro" stamp to come to this conclusion!

 

[Tim P]

If you don't know what you are buying, budget accordingly. No problem with reproduction stuff being discreetly marked as such, but I rarely see a repro that offers better than 90 % accuracy, you can almost always tell.

This is not restricted to militaria. Fake designer goods, cars, watches, bags and non military collecibles etc are similarly faked. We as humans need to be constantly wary of parting with cash.. where a rare or costly item exists, a faker will make one. Rarely good enough to fool.