Modern issue A-2: the new collector item?

[ZuZu]

I think the whole point is that even if modern A-2s reach some sort of collectibilty and value they still won't have anywhere near the artistic and historic worth of the pre-1968 stuff made with old time American craftsmanship and materials. Speaking authoritatively here with my Cornell BFA and its comprehensive training in art history I can tell you that the old jackets are intinsically worth more! (Picture me in all black with shock white hair and a stern effeminate look)

A-2s and G-1s had a resurgence of value in the 80s and 90s when the Japanese started appreciating them, not only for their history but mostly on the innate beauty of the jackets and patches. When the Japanese appreciate something you can be sure there's an artistic component. Modern A-2s have none of the selfstanding worth of the old stuff. Maybe some weirdly patched examples will attain value but never on a par with the old stuff.

Even on this forum we see this is true- how many positive Cooper or Avirex threads are there where we anally dissect their features?

 

[B-Man2]

I think the whole point is that even if modern A-2s reach some sort of collectibilty and value they still won't have anywhere near the artistic and historic worth of the pre-1968 stuff made with old time American craftsmanship and materials. Speaking authoritatively here with my Cornell BFA and its comprehensive training in art history I can tell you that the old jackets are intinsically worth more! (Picture me in all black with shock white hair and a stern effeminate look)

A-2s and G-1s had a resurgence of value in the 80s and 90s when the Japanese started appreciating them, not only for their history but mostly on the innate beauty of the jackets and patches. When the Japanese appreciate something you can be sure there's an artistic component. Modern A-2s have none of the selfstanding worth of the old stuff. Maybe some weirdly patched examples will attain value but never on a par with the old stuff.

Even on this forum we see this is true- how many positive Cooper or Avirex threads are there where we anally dissect their features?

Valid talking points all of them Zu…..
But from my experience here and at air shows and in general conversation with people I encounter at gun shows and antique shows , You could take 100 people and ask them to identify wether the jacket I’m wearing is a WWII original or an 1990s military issue or an Avirex made jacket and maybe ten out of 100 MIGHT get the answer right . I agree with you that all of us on this forum have a deep appreciation for the history , craftsmanship , and artistic components of the original jackets , but we are a small group of like minded people who have researched and studied the origin and history of these jackets and who made them and who wore them . The average guy on the street wouldn’t know the differences in any of those jackets we mentioned. You actually make my point . Look at yourself , by your own admission , you live , eat , sleep , study , examine to the most intricate details the composition of every part of these jackets and compare them to other makers originals and current day repros . Who does that outside of this forum and other collector venues ? Certainly not the other 99.9% of the public . My point is that. “we few , we happy few , we band of brothers” ( See what I did there) will always be on top of this hobby but the newer people joining it now and in the future will never have access to the original A2 jackets that we did several years ago unless they pay thousands of dollars for them or they accept that they can have access to later production, military issued, 1990s jackets at reasonable prices. Thereby acquiring some examples of military A2’s and keeping the hobby alive .
Just my thoughts on the issue.

 

[ZuZu]

Valid talking points all of them Zu…..
But from my experience here and at air shows and in general conversation with people I encounter at gun shows and antique shows , You could take 100 people and ask them to identify wether the jacket I’m wearing is a WWII original or an 1990s military issue or an Avirex made jacket and maybe ten out of 100 MIGHT get the answer right . I agree with you that all of us on this forum have a deep appreciation for the history , craftsmanship , and artistic components of the original jackets , but we are a small group of like minded people who have researched and studied the origin and history of these jackets and who made them and who wore them . The average guy on the street wouldn’t know the differences in any of those jackets we mentioned. You actually make my point . Look at yourself , by your own admission , you live , eat , sleep , study , examine to the most intricate details the composition of every part of these jackets and compare them to other makers originals and current day repros . Who does that outside of this forum and other collector venues ? Certainly not the other 99.9% of the public . My point is that. “we few , we happy few , we band of brothers” ( See what I did there) will always be on top of this hobby but the newer people joining it now and in the future will never have access to the original A2 jackets that we did several years ago unless they pay thousands of dollars for them or they accept that they can have access to later production, military issued, 1990s jackets at reasonable prices. Thereby acquiring some examples of military A2’s and keeping the hobby alive .
Just my thoughts on the issue.

Yes... but... the new jackets themselves will never be studied and obsessed over like the old ones- there's no there there!

 

[Chandler]

Yes... but... the new jackets themselves will never be studied and obsessed over like the old ones- there's no there there!

You using Jorge's time machine to travel to the future? Because there's no way you can know this for sure. All personal conjecture.

I see so many "collectibles" at antique shops and shows that I'd never have singled out to be valuable, yet there's some ludicrous price tag making me shake my head.

 

[ZuZu]

You using Jorge's time machine to travel to the future? Because there's no way you can know this for sure. All personal conjecture.

I see so many "collectibles" at antique shops and shows that I'd never have singled out to be valuable, yet there's some ludicrous price tag making me shake my head.

Right- but there's a difference between collectible for itself sake and artistic/historical appreciation. The old stuff is on a different plane.

 

[Chandler]

Right- but there's a difference between collectible for itself sake and artistic/historical appreciation. The old stuff is on a different plane.

Not my point. I was pointing out that there's no way you can predict what someone's going to find collectible or want to "study" in 20 or 30 years.

 

[ZuZu]

Not my point. I was pointing out that there's no way you can predict what someone's going to find collectible or want to "study" in 20 or 30 years.

True enough but you can predict which will be found more valuable in the future. Cockpit A-2s and DSCP jackets will be

Not my point. I was pointing out that there's no way you can predict what someone's going to find collectible or want to "study" in 20 or 30 years.

OK! I give up! (but they won't be studying Coopers or Saddlerys- no there there- nothing to study...) Last word...

 

[Southoftheborder]

Right- but there's a difference between collectible for itself sake and artistic/historical appreciation. The old stuff is on a different plane.

B17 maybe?

 

[Grant]

Zu is secretly hoarding all the Saddlery, Coopers, Avriex's he can get his hands on hoping we buy his "no there there" theory to keep prices down!

 

[Nickb123]

True enough but you can predict which will be found more valuable in the future. Cockpit A-2s and DSCP jackets will be



OK! I give up! (but they won't be studying Coopers or Saddlerys- no there there- nothing to study...) Last word...

The DSCP Navy jackets are already creeping up. The one I had was built like a tank!

 

[ZuZu]

The DSCP Navy jackets are already creeping up. The one I had was built like a tank!

Yes they are built like tanks- they're like a Toyota Camry. They may "creep up" but they will never be "cool" to collectors in the same way as the old stuff. Toyota Camry compared to a 1969 Chevy Malibu...

 

[ZuZu]

Even 1969 Brill Bros and Stars with the Dynel collars aren't as valuable as equivalents with mouton- it will always be so. The old stuff has better materials, more interesting differences and more historical panache.

 

[Former.USAF.C130]

Seems steep. Good luck to him.

Cockpit branded DSCP USAF issue jackets are trash. The one you want is the Avirex branded DSCP, but even those don't usually go for over $200. I got mine for about $90.

I am not an expert re flight jackets, nor am I a collector. I simply use them. However, I have owned Gibson & Barnes, Cooper, US Wings, and Cockpit USA A-2's. I find G&B jackets a good value (from a durability context), as I do US Wings. I view Cooper as insubstantial; I regard it as a poor value--from a durability context. I have one quite durable old Avirex cowhide leather jacket; the lining has tears; the leather is undamaged; however, the arms have become noticeably different in color from the body of the jacket, which I attribute to a difference in the quality of leather.... I just bought a new DSCP Cockpit USA A-2 cowhide jacket for $150. As you said, the manufacturer has applied some kind of substance on top of the leather (seeming to be mainly on the arms). The leather has not cracked, but it has small wrinkles on the sleeves. A knowledgeable person such as yourself would probably notice this; I suspect the typical person would not. Although I am speculating, I suspect that this substance was applied to prevent dye from leaching out of the leather. However, I would not call the jacket "trash," because it is well made, it fits beautifully and has thick leather. I don't plan to wear it in a "dress-up" setting, so the wrinkles really don't bother me. If the somebody steals it, I can buy another cheaply, whereas if I were to buy a so-called "quality" jacket, (1) it is more likely to be stolen and (2) it will cost substantially more and (3) I will worry about damaging the leather (all providing no more usability or durability than my "trash jacket. BTW, I can afford to pay $2000 for a jacket I just don't/ want to.

 

[Pilot]

Ahrg….
Just wanted to list a few Cooper Saddlery A-2‘s issued and salvaged from OSAN AFB/ROKAF-B.
Two 44“ and 46“…
For me still the best ( recent) issued leather jacket for daily use… can take a lot of burden and is still great to wear…and very light… plus easy to stuff in a cabin baggage or helmet bag…
When unpacked, it takes back, its designed for , shape and this immediately… no wrinkles no creases no nothing…
Zip, studs, knits, liner and hide are indestructible…
The best low cost high class USAF leather, issued jacket ever… by experience since 1990…

 

[B-Man2]

I am not an expert re flight jackets, nor am I a collector. I simply use them. However, I have owned Gibson & Barnes, Cooper, US Wings, and Cockpit USA A-2's. I find G&B jackets a good value (from a durability context), as I do US Wings. I view Cooper as insubstantial; I regard it as a poor value--from a durability context. I have one quite durable old Avirex cowhide leather jacket; the lining has tears; the leather is undamaged; however, the arms have become noticeably different in color from the body of the jacket, which I attribute to a difference in the quality of leather.... I just bought a new DSCP Cockpit USA A-2 cowhide jacket for $150. As you said, the manufacturer has applied some kind of substance on top of the leather (seeming to be mainly on the arms). The leather has not cracked, but it has small wrinkles on the sleeves. A knowledgeable person such as yourself would probably notice this; I suspect the typical person would not. Although I am speculating, I suspect that this substance was applied to prevent dye from leaching out of the leather. However, I would not call the jacket "trash," because it is well made, it fits beautifully and has thick leather. I don't plan to wear it in a "dress-up" setting, so the wrinkles really don't bother me. If the somebody steals it, I can buy another cheaply, whereas if I were to buy a so-called "quality" jacket, (1) it is more likely to be stolen and (2) it will cost substantially more and (3) I will worry about damaging the leather (all providing no more usability or durability than my "trash jacket. BTW, I can afford to pay $2000 for a jacket I just don't/ want to.

Welcome to VLJ C-130!
It’s always good to hear from someone who actually used these jackets. Hope you stick around and weigh in on some of the current conversations . So … in response to some of your talking points … much of what is discussed here pertains to vintage leather jackets to include the original and repro early jackets of pre WWII and those issued during WWII. We discuss them, collect them and with regards to reproductions of these early WWII jackets we obsess over buying the most accurate repros available. Often spending thousands of dollars on them. Sounds a little crazy right? But that’s what we do. So that sort of separates the conversation between collectors vs people who actually use them and were issued them in the last 20 years.
FYI Many of us have recent issues of USAF jackets and I can say without reservation that they are great jackets. I love the ones I have and wear them whenever the job at hand calls for a warm jacket to do working stuff that I wouldn’t wear a $1200 jacket to do .
Anyway you get the idea … so hang around .. we welcome your participation!!
Regards

 

[Former.USAF.C130]

Thank you. I was unaware of the purpose of this site. I understand now. I will stick around to learn. I might ask the occasional question, but I doubt I will be able to offer any contribution.

 

[B-Man2]

Thank you. I was unaware of the purpose of this site. I understand now. I will stick around to learn. I might ask the occasional question, but I doubt I will be able to offer any contribution.

It’s a great place to ask questions and offer opinions…

 

[Former.USAF.C130]

I saw this on greedBay and it started me to thinking, will current issue flight kit someday be highly sought after like the WW2 stuff is?

NOS USAF DSCP COCKPIT OFFICIAL A-2 FLIGHT JACKET 46L | eBay

Size is 46L. COCKPIT USA is the official supplier of A-2 jackets for the U.S. Air Force. Sleeve: 28. Pit to pit: 27.

www.ebay.com

This is the exact jacket I bought last week. It was new. It was priced at $200; I offered $150, which the seller accepted. I have seen several of these on eBay, bearing the higher price of the Cockpit USA A-2. (DSCP Cockpit USA is made by Cockpit USA). I find the one I bought to be well-constructed, and it fits perfectly. However, there are several features I don't like: (1) the brown color is a light brown which is not particularly attractive (2) it does not smell like leather (see no.3 for reason), and (3) although this jacket is supposedly made of cowhide, it does not seem so; some kind of coating has been applied to the leather that causes the leather on both arms to "crinkle" with a network of small wrinkles and that blocks the aroma of a normal leather jacket. (4) I think this coating will prevent the development of a patina.
At $ 150-200 I consider the jacket a good value for functional purposes (manual work) but not for looks. A price above $200 is excessive; if you can't find what you want, wait a few weeks and give eBay another try.

 

[LJDRVR]

This is going to be an unpopular opinion, allow me to preface it by saying I respect this community and its expertise immensely. I’m a huge fan of G-1s and A-2s.

The Coopers and Saddlery jackets are every bit as important as the originals.

Why might that be?

Because they were actually issued, by the USAF, to aircrew.

You can debate - needlessly - the difference between serving on a B-24 during the Ploesti raid, and flying as a crew member on an Air Guard C-40 flying to SoCal on a sunny day eighty years later, because we and our jackets haven’t done either.

Both of those missions were flown by American airmen, wearing the current iteration of the issued flight jacket. Your Eastman may be an amazing replica, but it’s not real. And your original is the real thing, but to a civilian who never served or earned the right to wear it, there’s not a lick of difference between it and a gulf war era A-2. Both are G.I.

What I’m saying is that none of us are in any position to be jacket snobs. Lovely patina ‘43 Star A-2 with a depot redeye and replacement cuffs? That’s awesome! Congratulations. Shopping mall “bomber jacket with a seam across the back and hand slits? Outstanding! Wear it in good health.

Good for both of you.

 

[mulceber]

The Coopers and Saddlery jackets are every bit as important as the originals.

Why might that be?

Because they were actually issued, by the USAF, to aircrew.

Counterpoint (respectfully): unlike the originals, modern issued A-2s aren't flying gear. Modern day USAF and USN airmen are issued A-2 and G-1 jackets, but aren't allowed to wear them in the air, as far as I know.