Interesting detail about Hilts' A-2

[Brettafett]

One hears rumours it was one jacket. Re-dyed RW 16159, now in some collection in Japan.
Would be interesting to chat to gary about where he got all his info from, to make his recent version.
I had one of his earlier MASH versions (27752 and it was not amazing, just a darker jacket)... For Gary to change details, means to me, that he received some 'new' info.

 

[Technonut2112]

I don't mean any disrespect to JC but I'm afraid he doesn't have the body ratio of a typical WW2 airman either, i.e. it's not his jackets that are inaccurate

That has nothing to do with the fact that he would reproduce whatever length cuff that is common to be showing for whichever contract he masters depending upon sleeve-length...

 

[johnwayne]

After the 'what jackets are you wearing' the SMcQ/Hilts A2 is probably one the most discussed topics on this forum over the years but a good one though!

 

[Greg Gale]

That has nothing to do with the fact that he would reproduce whatever length cuff that is common to be showing for whichever contract he masters depending upon sleeve-length...

I think it has EVERYTHING to do with it. JC doesn't reproduce "cuff commonly shown" but the exact copies of the jackets. Saying this reminds me of a rock band that went to record at the studio of a friend of mine. The bass was totally out of tune. "What are you guys tuned to" - he asked. "To a Metallica poster" came the answer. The bass player turned the tuning keys to the same position they were on a Metallica poster. Go figure...

1) Let's assume JC's jacket are perfect repros of originals, all measurements accurate to the mm. Which they probably are.
2) JC needs a wider jacket than a WW2 airman of his height. He's not 22 and has no digestive problems due to flying daily missions over the Reich and watching his friends die.
3) What does he do? Does he try to squeeze himself into the same jacket? No. He does what every reasonable man should: he puts on a larger one, that fits his chest and torso.
4) because of point 1) a larger jacket will have longer sleeves. JC doesn't make disproportionate jackets.
5) Are JC's arms longer than those of a WW2 airman of his height? Probably not.
6) Longer sleeves + same arm length = less cuff shown, less ride up, etc...

 

[Technonut2112]

Ummmm.. I don't think so:

 

[Greg Gale]

Ummm...what is your point, again?

EDIT: I see JC wearing a size 46 GW, then a size 44 original which has shorter sleeves and torso. What am I missing?

 

[Technonut2112]

He didn't flub anything from the original pictured to suit him better.. When I mentioned reproducing the cuff length, I didn't mean the length of the cuff it's self.. just what would be commonly left showing with arms relaxed in an original of it's respective size / sleeve length.

 

[Greg Gale]

I didn't say he did either, see my pint No.1. I'm still not getting what you're trying to say. He's wearing a 46 GW that we both assume is the exact copy of a 46 original, then a 46 original which we assume fits him exactly like a 44 GW. So?

 

[Technonut2112]

The 46 was reproduced directly from the 44. I am the current owner of the 46 pictured. My point remains that WHATEVER amount of cuff is supposed to be showing with arms relaxed in an original, is what you are going to get from one of JC's repros..

 

[Greg Gale]

Agreed. I'd just add one thing: Whatever amount of cuff is supposed to show on an original with you wearing it will show on a GW, equally, you wearing it. It still doesn't have to do anything with my original point in #24

 

[Technonut2112]

And I've had 5 GW's in my size with one on the way. ALL of them (all different contracts) had the same sleeve lengths, and NONE of them rode past my wrist-bones while driving or moderately reaching out, nor tunneled to the point of not being seen. I've been involved in this hobby for over 40 years (obtained my first G-1 at 14 years old), and have never seen someone go to these lengths (pun intended) to validate, or feel good about the length of their cuffs, and other features of their chosen contract...

 

[Greg Gale]

Now I'm starting to wonder if a) I didn't express myself clearly enough or b) you are saying you have the build of a WW2 airman, or perhaps c) you're the one doing what you're blaming me to be doing?

Which one of us starts talking about how THEIR jacket fits THEM as soon as we get even near this topic, be it about period photos or McQueen? Scroll back, it's not me

EDIT: What you've done in this thread goes well beyond the boundaries of trolling, and I wish these forums had an "ignore" function.

EDIT 2: found it

 

[Technonut2112]

I just go with the flow of whichever contracts I choose.. Also if you've noticed, I don't give a tinker's damn about what someone thinks of how my jackets fit, nor do I ask for opinions. I am comfortable with knowing and appreciating the individual nuances of whichever contract has caught my interest enough to own. I've owned slimmer fits, medium fits, all the way to the super-relaxed, comfy fit of a Cable Raincoat, and I just dig these jackets for what they are, and how they were patterned.. As long as I enjoy them, that's all that matters..

 

[Juanito]

Nothing new in here, really. I've just been looking at photos of McQueen in The GreatEscape, and I discovered something - something that's not new to anyone, but I thought it would be interesting to point out and share with you. It's not meant to start any discussion about "proper fit", we all know it varied massively, don't we? It's more about pointing out a "feature" of our beloved A-2s that many tend to ignore, or regard as a defect - including me from time to time. Let this be a sobering reminder of what A-2s are really like

So McQueen is wearing a RW (27752? 16159?), quite a generously sized one, definitely not on the trim side, sleeves tunneling and all (Even if wearing the jacket unzipped relaxes the shoulders and makes the sleeves a tad longer)

But let's see what happens to the sleeves when he folds his arms, or raises them:

Sitting down only exacerbates the phenomenon:

and now, look what happens when he wants to pick up his baseball:

Also, when he raises his arms, the jacket raises with them!

I thought it would be nice to have these pictures in one thread, sorry if I wasted anyone's time

One thing I have noticed over the years is that an A-2 that slopes off the shoulders actually exascerbates the problem of the sleeves riding up and the jacket raising when the arms are lifted, as opposed to one where the sleeve seam squares up on the shoulder.

 

[Lebowski]

Nobody questioned that. It does look very good on him. I merely tried to demonstrate the "nature of the beast" as Technonut put it.

I understand some don't like it when the sleeves pull up, but why would you pay so much for a jacket that has an inherent feature you dislike? If I exaggerated a bit, I would say: who would buy a Porsche, only to say they want extra room in the trunk, because for the money they had to pay, it had better be able to carry a fridge. But this is an extreme example, and I know Porsches have their trunk in the front

Another point to consider is that most of us don't have the height/weight nor chest/ waist ratio of a 22 yr old airman, so most of us will have longer sleeves that comes with the larger chest size, thus reducing this problem. I've only seen a handful period photos where jackets showed "some" cuff, on the rest of them it was more like "most of the cuff, if not all", but that's subjective.

Going back to the point of this thread, riding up has less to do with sleeve length than many would think (see McQueen), it's just part of the deal. Even his roomy fitting RW with plenty of sleeve length does it. No surprise the Navy went with the bi-swing backs. I have a Levi's Denim jacket that reaches down to my knuckles. When I drive it rides up more than any of my jackets.

Greg, may I reply straight? The sleeves of your Eastman Star Sportswear look absolutely perfect on you, and even if they're a little bit on a short side for somebody else - I think it's just a question of personal preferences. The whole fit of the whole jacket is much more important then just "sleeve length". Though, a bit of "tunneling" (as an opposite ex.) isn't a problem too, if the whole jacket fits good. I mean, I wouldn't pay more attention on just "sleeve length" without paying attention to the whole jacket. That's my point)
P.S. Sleeve "tunneling" on Eastman Star Sportswear would look not attractive nor correct to me, I would definitely prefer your variant of wearing it above any "sleeve tunneling" in this specific contract. So, I mean - just forget about sleeve length, it's usually not a big problem in both cases. When sleeves are a little bit "short" or when sleeves have a bit of "tunneling" - both cases are O'k if the whole jacket fits nice. That's what I mean.
P.P.S. Moreover, the question of the fit of the whole jacket - it's a question of personal preferences too))

 

[Brettafett]

I love the jackets in the original Catch 22 film, because, besides the 'hero' jacket (an original Roughwear?)... There are many types being worn by many different body types. Young thin guys, taller guys, shorter guys, and a couple of bigger guys Its a great cross section of mostly original WW2 A-2s being worn. Great film, with great jackets.

 

[Lebowski]

Ummmm.. I don't think so:

View attachment 12123

The original seems to have much taller pockets than its repro on the left...

 

[Technonut2112]

The original seems to have much taller pockets than its repro on the left...

I'm pretty sure that JC goes through a few examples of each original contract, and goes with what he decides is most common. This has been discussed before, and pics were posted of various original pocket sizes in the same contract, which is not unusual. The overall pattern was based from the original size 44 in that comparison.

 

[Lebowski]

I'm pretty sure that JC goes through a few examples of each original contract, and goes with what he decides is most common. This has been discussed before, and pics were posted of various original pocket sizes in the same contract, which is not unusual. The overall pattern was based from the original size 44 in that comparison.

Do you mean that pockets of the same WWII contract varied widely during jackets production then in 40s?

 

[Technonut2112]

Do you mean that pockets of the same WWII contract varied widely during jackets production then in 40s?

I wouldn't say widely, but it was common, like many of the 'mistake' jackets that went through inspection with one pocket placed higher than the other, etc... These jackets were flying through the factories at break-neck speed by many inexperienced workers.