Eastman / ELC "Pearl Harbor" question

[Banzai]

I have one of these, and I love it. Terrific jacket. Quick question:

I've read on here that they were, at least at one point, made in steerhide. True? Eastman's website, as well as the HPA website, list the jacket as being horsehide, just like the other "house" jackets. I bought mine a while back second hand, seller advertised as horsehide. I can't find a single reference outside of forum posters about this jacket ever being steerhide. Is this one of those apocryphal internet forum things? If true, when did it change?

 

[Chandler]

Nobody post until I pop some corn...


@Banzai -- this could open a big can o' worms. Any reason, especially buying a second-hand jacket that you seem to love, you have a real need to know whether it's steer or horse?

There's been a lot of research and study that tells us it's all but impossible to tell the difference between steer and horse in the finished leather stage. Both have been proven to have been used in making A-2s.

 

[Banzai]

I have no real need to know outside of mere curiosity. It was a fact/rumor I stumbled upon while doing research on replacing the knits on the jacket.

I did, in fact, replace those knits. The original Eastman knits were flimsy, and these were kind of ratty and "blown out" I sent the jacket to Dena at Leather Care Specialists and she replaced them with some much more substantial knits. That one little change made it twice the jacket.

But just curious. Not going to think less of it either way. I love vintage/WW2 "styled" jackets, but I'm not a thread counter. When the USAF issued me my modern A-2, I wouldn't have been able to tell you the difference between it and a vintage/repro jacket. I just thought it was really cool that they gave me a sweet leather pilot jacket. And I loved how jealous the Army guys always were.

 

[Chandler]

Many moons ago there was a big kerfuffle stemming from poor marketing, poor communication, and misunderstanding of hide choices with ELC. The resulting decisions and assumptions (by all involved), along with the ignition of finger-pointing and name-calling from "other" reproduction jacket makers, created great animosity and division among the online flight jacket community.

Basically, ELC offered their house jackets (including the Pearl Harbor) in 3 hides: horse, goat, and steer. The trouble was that customers needed to choose which hide when ordering and (supposedly) when they didn't, ELC defaulted their order to steerhide. When customers learned they didn't have a horsehide jacket (even if they didn't pay the extra premium price) they started lighting torches and grabbing pitchforks.

It's been so long since this whole fiasco, I don't recall all the details, but since then ELC has always added a Genuine Horsehide label in the pockets of their A-2s. If yours doesn't have the label, it may just be one of those early jackets, or it might be made from steer. Only way to really know (and if you care that much to know) is a DNA test on your jacket. No joke. People actually had it done -- at great expense.

So, to my point of loving your jacket -- be happy that you do. Many pilots wore A-2s made of steerhide in WW2 and didn't even know what DNA was.

 

[D97x7]

Was steer ever actually part of the original war time spec, or were the manufacturers just using what was available as no one could tell the difference anyway?

 

[Chandler]

Was steer ever actually part of the original war time spec, or were the manufacturers just using what was available as no one could tell the difference anyway?

From what I recall, steer nor goat were part of the original specs, but yes -- with war time shortages manufacturers were allowed to use what was available as long as it was strong material.

I don't think there was any underhanded choice of hides (and I believe steer and horse were similarly priced back then), it was just necessity. And goat is easily distinguishable from the other two -- most times.

 

[B-Man2]

Nick
As I recall the original pre war specs for the A2 called for Horsehide. However around the 41 or 42 time frame you have cowhide and goat being used in place of Horsehide . Not sure that it was anything other than a wartime supply and demand issue, but I tend to doubt that it was an under the table switch move . Wartime contractors were making big money back in those days and had too much to loose by risking a bait and switch move .

 

[D97x7]

Yes I think you're right, I'd just wondered that was all.

 

[Chandler]

Also, there were some contractors that turned out all their jackets in goatskin. I believe Spiewak was one.

 

[B-Man2]

Also, there were some contractors that turned out all their jackets in goatskin. I believe Spiewak was one.

Spot on with the Spiewak contract, that was entirely goatskin.
The second Cable contract 42-15142P was also a goatskin contract according to Gary Eastmans A2 Manual.

 

[mulceber]

Also, there were some contractors that turned out all their jackets in goatskin. I believe Spiewak was one.

Yep, although the thing that needs to be remembered is that none of the manufacturers chose the leather they were using. The government would make a separate contract with the tanneries for leather, and the tanneries shipped it to the manufacturers. So the price tag that's listed in Eastman's A-2 guide (usually ~$8 per jacket) is a bit misleading. That price is just the cost of assembling it. We have stories of pilots buying a spare flight jacket and having to pay around $20 for it. That wasn't the military trying to make a buck off their airmen, it just reflected the actual cost of producing the jacket.

And yes, from my understanding, cowhide was being used by the early '40s. Prior to that, some had gotten slipped in among the horsehide (look at the werber 1939 contract in Eastman's guide), but a combination of shortages of material and the simple fact that cowhide was every bit as good eventually persuaded people.

 

[Banzai]

Many moons ago there was a big kerfuffle stemming from poor marketing, poor communication, and misunderstanding of hide choices with ELC. The resulting decisions and assumptions (by all involved), along with the ignition of finger-pointing and name-calling from "other" reproduction jacket makers, created great animosity and division among the online flight jacket community.

Basically, ELC offered their house jackets (including the Pearl Harbor) in 3 hides: horse, goat, and steer. The trouble was that customers needed to choose which hide when ordering and (supposedly) when they didn't, ELC defaulted their order to steerhide. When customers learned they didn't have a horsehide jacket (even if they didn't pay the extra premium price) they started lighting torches and grabbing pitchforks.

It's been so long since this whole fiasco, I don't recall all the details, but since then ELC has always added a Genuine Horsehide label in the pockets of their A-2s. If yours doesn't have the label, it may just be one of those early jackets, or it might be made from steer. Only way to really know (and if you care that much to know) is a DNA test on your jacket. No joke. People actually had it done -- at great expense.

So, to my point of loving your jacket -- be happy that you do. Many pilots wore A-2s made of steerhide in WW2 and didn't even know what DNA was.

Very interesting.

Mine has a repro "Talon" zipper on it, which I think is a bit older...Eastman seems to be using all Crown zippers these days. Beyond that, the only material tag in it is next to the "contract" tag, and it says, in great detail: "Shell: leather. Trim: wool".

 

[Banzai]

Was steer ever actually part of the original war time spec, or were the manufacturers just using what was available as no one could tell the difference anyway?

I don't know. However, would like to emphasize that this question isn't so much about the accuracy of the repro, as to the simply what was actually used. While researching knits I stumbled upon webforum references to that model being in steer, when ELC and HPA only have horse listed.

Technically, their Pearl Harbor is a repro of a movie jacket adapted from their "house" jacket which is a general approximation of averaging the traits of several repros, or what Eastman said is hypothetically the jacket they might have made had they been around in WW2 and given a contract. So, the accuracy of steer or horse is a bit moot, I suppose.

It's really a nice jacket though.

 

[D97x7]

Yeah sorry, I wasn't trying to hijack your question, it was just something that I'd pondered and being as the Steerhide thing came up I thought I'd ask.

 

[Micawber]

Yep, although the thing that needs to be remembered is that none of the manufacturers chose the leather they were using. The government would make a separate contract with the tanneries for leather, and the tanneries shipped it to the manufacturers. So the price tag that's listed in Eastman's A-2 guide (usually ~$8 per jacket) is a bit misleading. That price is just the cost of assembling it. We have stories of pilots buying a spare flight jacket and having to pay around $20 for it. That wasn't the military trying to make a buck off their airmen, it just reflected the actual cost of producing the jacket.

And yes, from my understanding, cowhide was being used by the early '40s. Prior to that, some had gotten slipped in among the horsehide (look at the werber 1939 contract in Eastman's guide), but a combination of shortages of material and the simple fact that cowhide was every bit as good eventually persuaded people.

In a word - this.

 

[Banzai]

Yeah sorry, I wasn't trying to hijack your question, it was just something that I'd pondered and being as the Steerhide thing came up I thought I'd ask.

No worries. I just didn't want things to devolve into a fight about the accuracy of repros and actual wartime contracts like what Chandler was talking about above.
Simple query about what Eastman actually used, not the merits of it. I wish they had something like a product archive. That would have made this easier.

 

[Chandler]

Mine has a repro "Talon" zipper on it, which I think is a bit older...

Some of the very early Eastmans had original Talons, but I'm not sure what was used on the PH jackets that were introduced with the movie.

Beyond that, the only material tag in it is next to the "contract" tag, and it says, in great detail: "Shell: leather. Trim: wool".

That tag is required for sale in the US, most of us carefully cut that out a long time ago. Surprising that it's still in a pre-owned example.

There should also be a small tag under the right-hand pocket flap.

You should post pictures of your jacket -- love to see it.

 

[Banzai]

Yep, although the thing that needs to be remembered is that none of the manufacturers chose the leather they were using. The government would make a separate contract with the tanneries for leather, and the tanneries shipped it to the manufacturers. So the price tag that's listed in Eastman's A-2 guide (usually ~$8 per jacket) is a bit misleading. That price is just the cost of assembling it. We have stories of pilots buying a spare flight jacket and having to pay around $20 for it. That wasn't the military trying to make a buck off their airmen, it just reflected the actual cost of producing the jacket.

And yes, from my understanding, cowhide was being used by the early '40s. Prior to that, some had gotten slipped in among the horsehide (look at the werber 1939 contract in Eastman's guide), but a combination of shortages of material and the simple fact that cowhide was every bit as good eventually persuaded people.

This was government wartime utility wear, not fashion design, after all.
When I got my own modern A-2 issued, it was a very utilitarian process, with short attention even paid to sizing.

"Do you know your jacket size? Ok, here you go. Sign this form."

 

[Banzai]

Some of the very early Eastmans had original Talons, but I'm not sure what was used on the PH jackets that were introduced with the movie.

That tag is required for sale in the US, most of us carefully cut that out a long time ago. Surprising that it's still in a pre-owned example.

There should also be a small tag under the right-hand pocket flap.

You should post pictures of your jacket -- love to see it.

The only thing on that tag is the size. I'll post some pics soon.

 

[Chandler]

The only thing on that tag is the size. I'll post some pics soon.

No "serial" number? Might be used to identify the jacket by ELC... if you can get them to respond.