Eastman / Aero price gouging on overseas sales

[SuinBruin]

I think this is worth its own thread rather than getting buried in a discussion of Kelso jackets.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12642&start=50#p118654

If you're not in the UK or EU and are buying from Eastman, it appears you're getting gouged for an extra 20%. Not cool, IMO.

 

[Jeff M]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

I am glad you started this thread. I was not comfortable with it being entwined with the other one.

I am still unclear as to ELC's policy, and am trying to clarify from them what it is.
Till then.....hoping it is a big misunderstanding.

 

[SuinBruin]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

I don't think it's a misunderstanding at all, and it really hacks me off. Look at what Gary told you:

The price you see on the website doesn't include VAT to the US, so the price you see is the price you would pay (plus postage of course).

Assuming you quoted him correctly and verbatim, that is an incredibly weaselly way of phrasing the issue. "Doesn't include VAT to the US" is meaningless, since there is no VAT to (or in) the US. But note that he doesn't just say "doesn't include VAT," because the price does include VAT to UK and EU buyers. It appears to be a very deliberate and calculated way of obscuring the issue, which is to say, the prices shown on the web site include 20% VAT, which those outside the UK and EU don't have to pay and thus should be eligible for a 20% reduction (which would still give Eastman the benefit of the same profit margin it realizes on its European sales).

Bottom line, it's an undisclosed 20% markup on overseas sales that seems to take deliberate advantage of the fact that prices in the US do not, as a general rule, include sales tax and so US buyers aren't looking out for a tax-inflated price.

I was planning on getting one of Eastman's USN sweaters, but if this issue isn't addressed in an honest and fair manner I won't buy a thing from Eastman (and I'd strongly urge everyone outside of the UK and EU to do likewise as they are getting blatantly ripped off). After the Red Tails fiasco I'm not sure I'm willing to give Eastman the benefit of the doubt.

Also...

I can understand nobody wants to pay more, and heck I get annoyed myself if I feel I haven't sniffed out the best deal, but it's Eastman's business decision to make at the end of the day.

No one wants to be discriminated against, either. If anyone can offer a justification for charging overseas customers an additional 20% of pure profit that is unrelated to postage expenses, I'd love to hear it.

 

[Geir]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

I once asked Eastman about since this. When I buy online from other people in the UK and VAT is always deducted on export orders outside the EU. Eastman simply answered that they did not deduct VAT on export orders. (Aero has the same practice). In Norway we have 25% VAT and Eastman gives the final price including shipping charges in the customs documents, so that I also have to pay 25% VAT on the postage.
So, yes, Eastman and Aero have an extra 20 % profit on export orders. And they refuse to change their practice.

 

[unclegrumpy]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

In Norway we have 25% VAT and Eastman gives the final price including shipping charges in the customs documents, so that I also have to pay 25% VAT on the postage. So, yes, Eastman and Aero have an extra 20 % profit on export orders. And they refuse to change their practice.

This means that you are paying both the UK VAT that does not get paid, and Norwegian VAT & Customs on top of that....Ouch!

 

[ButteMT61]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

Thanks for posting this info. Glad I never patronized them.

 

[Jeff M]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

I received this reply from Gary when I asked him if they added the VAT to UK orders;


"Because we sell internationally, to keep things simple, we have the same price for everyone - for sales in the UK, we absorb the VAT element."

ie, I am being charged VAT even though I don't live in the UK.

I canceled my order.
It's as much the fact that I am paying 20% more for the item than I should, as the way ELC is trying to slip it by.
I'll stick with GoodWear.

(Come on BK!! Get up and running!!)

 

[saunders]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

I was planning on getting one of Eastman's USN sweaters, but if this issue isn't addressed in an honest and fair manner I won't buy a thing from Eastman (and I'd strongly urge everyone outside of the UK and EU to do likewise as they are getting blatantly ripped off). After the Red Tails fiasco I'm not sure I'm willing to give Eastman the benefit of the doubt.

Also...

I can understand nobody wants to pay more, and heck I get annoyed myself if I feel I haven't sniffed out the best deal, but it's Eastman's business decision to make at the end of the day.

No one wants to be discriminated against, either. If anyone can offer a justification for charging overseas customers an additional 20% of pure profit that is unrelated to postage expenses, I'd love to hear it.[/quote]

ELC also doesn't charge shipping & insurance for the first replacement item sent to buyers, including those overseas, so if you need to exchange size, etc., they pay for the second item, though you still need to get the first item back to them or your dime. Also, there's a good amount of extra paperwork to process sales overseas, thus it costs the business more for these sales. It's possible these are just two reasons why the VAT is not deducted from overseas sales. This could also be the logic for Aero not deducting the VAT on overseas sales.

Aero buyers previously enjoyed an excellent option to save money and hassles via Aero USA (Mark Moye). ELC buyers in N. America still have the option of buying in the USA from the ELC agent HPA, where you can save money and time and return hassles: Compare prices of ELC to HPA, HPA is decidedly cheaper on most items, with duty and shipping & insurance from ELC built in the price, no processing charges, and less-costly exchanges with no hassles with customs, etc. The convenience of working with a company in the hemisphere one lives in should make it a no-brainer, and even more of win for me, as I live in Pennsylvania and had the pleasure of having Charles at HPA hand deliver my first purchases.

Do you just want to cast stones at ELC and get your way?

 

[GoodTimesGone]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

Does anyone know if the price would be better for a U.S. customer if they went through History Preservation Associates for Eastman jackets?
_________________________________________
Tom

 

[GoodTimesGone]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

I see while I was typing my question was answered. Thanks.
____________________________________
Tom

 

[Jeff M]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

Does anyone know if the price would be better for a U.S. customer if they went through History Preservation Associates for Eastman jackets?
_________________________________________
Tom

When all is said and done, you end up paying approx. the same whether you purchase from HPA or directly from Eastman.

 

[SuinBruin]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

I was planning on getting one of Eastman's USN sweaters, but if this issue isn't addressed in an honest and fair manner I won't buy a thing from Eastman (and I'd strongly urge everyone outside of the UK and EU to do likewise as they are getting blatantly ripped off). After the Red Tails fiasco I'm not sure I'm willing to give Eastman the benefit of the doubt.

Also...

I can understand nobody wants to pay more, and heck I get annoyed myself if I feel I haven't sniffed out the best deal, but it's Eastman's business decision to make at the end of the day.

No one wants to be discriminated against, either. If anyone can offer a justification for charging overseas customers an additional 20% of pure profit that is unrelated to postage expenses, I'd love to hear it.

ELC also doesn't charge shipping & insurance for the first replacement item sent to buyers, including those overseas, so if you need to exchange size, etc., they pay for the second item, though you still need to get the first item back to them or your dime. Also, there's a good amount of extra paperwork to process sales overseas, thus it costs the business more for these sales. It's possible these are just two reasons why the VAT is not deducted from overseas sales. This could also be the logic for Aero not deducting the VAT on overseas sales.

Aero buyers previously enjoyed an excellent option to save money and hassles via Aero USA (Mark Moye). ELC buyers in N. America still have the option of buying in the USA from the ELC agent HPA, where you can save money and time and return hassles: Compare prices of ELC to HPA, HPA is decidedly cheaper on most items, with duty and shipping & insurance from ELC built in the price, no processing charges, and less-costly exchanges with no hassles with customs, etc. The convenience of working with a company in the hemisphere one lives in should make it a no-brainer, and even more of win for me, as I live in Pennsylvania and had the pleasure of having Charles at HPA hand deliver my first purchases.

Do you just want to cast stones at ELC and get your way?

HPA doesn't carry everything in the Eastman line, and as Jeff points out, the costs wind up being about the same.

Most orders aren't going to involve exchanges for size, so it makes no sense to include a 20% overcharge on all overseas orders to cover those that do require an additional shipping fee (especially if Eastman has the same policy for UK and EU buyers -- what, no return shipping surcharge for them?). A fairer way to do it would be to not charge the 20% extra but to require an extra shipping fee on exchanges. This is more economically efficient, allocating costs to those who actually incur them (i.e., those who don't get their sizing right) while providing an incentive to order correctly.

As for "extra paperwork," c'mon. A couple of postal forms that take a few minutes to fill out = 20% surcharge? Uh, no. And how complicated it is to multiply something by .8? "Keeping things simple" really means "keeping an extra hundred pounds or so without disclosing the price discrepancy."

Finally, what with the additional competition for Eastman from Good Wear and now Kelso, you'd think they'd try to take advantage of the pricing differential and 20% discount for U.S. buyers. That would make their prices quite competitive, but apparently they'd rather keep their undisclosed 20% windfall. That's their business decision to make, just as it's my decision to not buy from them.

This sucks for all non-EU buyers, but there is something particularly galling about ELC making reproductions of vintage U.S. flight gear and hawking them to American buyers at artificially inflated prices. Blech. (The same goes for Aero, too. Now I'm glad I got mine through Mark Moye.)

 

[Persimmon]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

I received this reply from Gary when I asked him if they added the VAT to UK orders;


"Because we sell internationally, to keep things simple, we have the same price for everyone - for sales in the UK, we absorb the VAT element."

ie, I am being charged VAT even though I don't live in the UK.

I canceled my order.
It's as much the fact that I am paying 20% more for the item than I should, as the way ELC is trying to slip it by.
I'll stick with GoodWear.

(Come on BK!! Get up and running!!)

I have to say if I was buying from Non European overseas I woudl be pretty XXX off at Gary Eastman's comment.
As for absorbing the VAT element for UK customers how can they as they have to pay VAT on the jackets sold.
It certainly looks as they are taking a way higher profit margin for those customers overseas just because they can.

I have no experience of buying through HPA but from the comments it is clear at worse he is the same price as Eastman direct and maybe cheaper.
Thats not hard if he is not being charged VAT on his jackets for him to resell and thats before any reseller discounting etc so he has a margin to earn an income on.

I guess if I was an oversaes US/Australian/Canadian etc etc customer I would be wanting a refund of the VAT element I had paid out on that jacket(s) purchase..

If Aero are doing the same you could see again why Mark was able to make an income - no VAT and reseller discounting.
It seems he just decided that was not enough and went off the rails.
Still coming back to Aero if they are indeed operating this policy in this way no wonder they love those cash rich Americans.

Come in Gordon Gekko
"The point is ladies and gentlemen that greed, for lack of a better word, is good."

Still in another classic Gordon saying, that may well be appropriate in the Eastman offices at the moment .....

"When I get a hold of the son of a bitch who leaked this, I'm gonna tear his eyeballs out and I'm gonna suck his fcuk ing skull. "

Ah well another day in this crazy jacket land we live in ...

 

[Jeff M]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

..

If Aero are doing the same you could see again why Mark was able to make an income - no VAT and reseller discounting.
It seems he just decided that was not enough and went off the rails.
.. ...

They are.
I emailed Amanda and asked.
If a jacket is listed at lets say 500.00, you pay 500.00 no matter if you live in the states or the UK. No VAT added to the price for UK customers.

COME ON BK!!

 

[derleicaman]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

The explanations for this VAT question do seem rather confusing. I know that when travelling overseas, you can ask for paperwork from a merchant to get a refund of the VAT upon exit on your return to the US, which I remember being a bit of a PITA at the Frankfurt airport years ago. I think this service is offered by mail and by now I would think over the internet with the proper tax authorities. I would think the same would apply for purchases from either Eastman or Aero. How can we find out about this?

I find the statement that Eastman absorbs the VAT and does not charge their EU customers insane. I would think the tax authorities would frown on that, but who knows. Are the overseas sales subsidizing the EU customers VAT?

Not trying to sound nasty, but it certainly does seem that Eastman has a problem with clarity of language and giving straight forward answers to simple questions, especially after the Red Tails debacle and now this question of VAT payments. :roll:

 

[Jeff M]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

The explanations for this VAT question do seem rather confusing. I know that when travelling overseas, you can ask for paperwork from a merchant to get a refund of the VAT upon exit on your return to the US, which I remember being a bit of a PITA at the Frankfurt airport years ago. I think this service is offered by mail and by now I would think over the internet with the proper tax authorities. I would think the same would apply for purchases from either Eastman or Aero. How can we find out about this?

I find the statement that Eastman absorbs the VAT and does not charge their EU customers insane. I would think the tax authorities would frown on that, but who knows. Are the overseas sales subsidizing the EU customers VAT?

Not trying to sound nasty, but it certainly does seem that Eastman has a problem with clarity of language and giving straight forward answers to simple questions, especially after the Red Tails debacle and now this question of VAT payments. :roll:

In my travels to the UK, whenever I purchased in item from a shop asked for and was given a VAT form that I turned into the airport when we left.
I don't see why this would be any different if I were to purchase an ELC jacket from a vendor in the UK. In fact, the link to the the store that sells Eastman jackets that I provided on the other thread where this is being discussed notes that their prices include VAT..which would be refundable/not charged on non UK sales.

http://www.youmustcreate.com/products/j ... er-jacket/

http://www.youmustcreate.com/payment-and-security/

"Sales Tax
All prices on our site are in pounds sterling and are inclusive of European Union sales tax (VAT) at the prevailing rate. If your order is being despatched outside the European Union (EU) then we will deduct VAT."

 

[ButteMT61]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

I did not have sexual relations with that woman! Different line, same BS :lol:

 

[Jeff M]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

...
I did not have sexual relations with that woman! Different line, same BS :lol:

Exactly.
When you you ask somebody a direct question and you feel that as they are answering you they are thinking "That depends on what the definition of "Is" is..."

time to look elsewhere.

 

[ButteMT61]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

Good work guys. I hate to think this was/is going on without anyone even knowing, but now that it's out there, it should be interesting to see if anything changes. Maybe this group is too small and they'll blow it off - maybe they will change it. But if they do, I'd imagine they're setting themselves up for lawsuits? AF?

 

[Rutger]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

It'd be a good idea to exactly find out how things work.

HM Revenue & Customs have a website, and they also can be contacted by phone.

If it really matters I'm sure some of the above will find the time to contact them.
If it is indeed urgent I expect no less than at least a couple of fellers calling them tomorrow 08:30 am and have the exact and final answers posted up here by the evening.

Also, if Aero is doing the exact same thing, the title of the thread should be changed, and I wouldn't be surprised if the list would ultimately endless.

We sell a lot of machinery all over the world, if I can find the time I'll ask our financial guy about it. It's of no immediate concern to me but an interesting topic.