Australian Made 1943 Irvin

[Roughwear]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WW2-RAAF-Sheepski ... 5883e06e28

This jacket has what appears to be an original 1943 dated label. It may just be an Australian-made Irvin. However the skin is dark reminding me of an early ALC jacket. The patch, B-3 style, pockets could be original to the jacket or theatre additions. The zip does look like one I have seen on an Irvin worn by an Australian pilot and a close-up shot would confirm this. So my guess is it could be original 1943 dated jacket rather than an older repro with an old label fixed to it. What do you think?

 

[jonnyboy]

Hi Andrew,

That's certainly an interesting jacket — looks original though, and has a lot of little quirks which are different from the standard features you tend to see on UK-made Irvins. If you look at the pic of it laid flat and open, it looks like there are folded seams on the sleeves (as well as the seams with tapes).

The zip looks like it could be a replacement (possibly RiRi?) - and is a bit too short for the jacket. Also, there's an extra eyelet on the belt.

I've never seen any images of Australian-made Irvins — were a lot issued?

Cheers,

Jon

 

[jonnyboy]

Actually, the zip looks like a type of Lightning zip I've seen somewhere before (but can't remember where)... :roll:

 

[deeb7]

What do you think?

I think it's an exciting find ... having seen pictures of the Australian made A-2, and it's label, this is just what you would expect to see.

Hopefully it will be repatriated by Australian architect.

 

[Roughwear]

I have had another look at the pictures and it throws up more questions. Why would the label have regimental no. on it? Could it be from a totally different jacket? The pockets are typical B3 pockets and are much like those on post war Irvins, but if they are wartime additions did the regulations allow such additions to Irvins? Why does the fleece look so much like the type used on early ALC jackets from the 1970s? The reversed skin side also looks like a similar finish as found on 1970s ALC jackets. The belt does display wear, especially to the buckle, which is seen on originals, but this could have occurred through wear over the last 35 years. I have asked the seller for pictures of the zips and the collar rings.

 

[deeb7]

Compare with ....

 

[Roughwear]

David, I have seen this A2 label before. Could a similar one have been used one various military clothing in Australia? I really hope the jacket is as the seller says, but still have my doubts and hope more close-up pics with help.

 

[deeb7]

David, I have seen this A2 label before. Could a similar one have been used one various military clothing in Australia?

Andrew Windsock .... get here !!

Yes, Andrew has other examples of this type of label, the 'V' was for the state of Victoria. I wouldn't worry about Regiment, that would be a standard name tag.

Here's the V505 thread ...

viewtopic.php?p=12747#p12747

 

[Roughwear]

Now this is interesting.

Hi yes,,,two rings under collar and interestingly all the zip pulls are marked "ri-ri" and are identical to a wartime German flight jacket I have.They are definaletly the original zips and are German ww2!

 

[MikeyB-17]

I have to say, to my inexpert eye, that doesn't look like an issued jacket. To me, it has a repro look to it.

 

[John Lever]

Repro jacket with an old label sewn in ?

 

[m444uk]

The main zip looks to be a modern pattern Swiss RiRi ?

 

[Peter Graham]

I have to say, to my inexpert eye, that doesn't look like an issued jacket. To me, it has a repro look to it.

I have to agree. Those zips look much too new.

 

[Roughwear]

Now if it is an original 1943 Irvin, which I am becoming increasingly sceptical about, would an Australian maker really have sourced Ri-ri zips from Switzerland, rather than get them more locally?

 

[havocpaul]

I am leaning towards an early repro or at least a post-war civvie/ private-purchase type jacket. Cannot believe those zips would have been sourced during the war in Australia. I notice there's a ALC Irvin-type jacket with similar pockets from the 1980's on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RAF-IRVIN-AIRCREW ... 27ac5e95dd
Obviously not the same sheepskin or finish but similar styles with those B-3 type pockets. It would be hard to prove but is it worth taking a risk?...I'm not so sure.

 

[Roughwear]

Here's more from the seller.

Hi this Jacket came with the RAAF cap badge which is listed at present.It has no holes under the arms and seems to be a cross between an RAF Irvin and a USAAF B3....I advertise for war souvenirs on a regular basis and this item came through an advert years ago.It was purchased privately from a the landlady of the local Pub in Binbrook which is 10 miles from me.This base was the home to Australian squadrons during the War.I have somewhere an artical on the pub published in the newspaper "Farewell to Binbrook "when the base closed but I cant promise I can find it although if I do I can include a photocopy of the page.

 

[Andrew]

Yaawwwnn! OK, i'm awake now.

If it really was an Australian made Irvin (for me at least) it would be very exciting, but i'm tending with the doubters so i can't get too worked up. I haven't seen or heard evidence of any sheepskin thermally insulated jackets or trousers ever having been made here. Australian Aircrew destined for Europe were mainly trained in Canada and Rhodesia, unless they took the short service option for the RAF, and I have never seen any photos of trainees in Australia wearing sheepskin- except on their feet.

Typically they wore RAAF type B helmets with gosports, Sidcots, gloves and '36 pattern boots. This is pretty much also what was worn in Rhodesia and in Canada they wore an RCAF type teddy bear suit for warmth. I don't know for sure but i'm certain they were only issued Irvins once in the UK before going on to serve there or in North Aftrica.

N503 is a factory that was located in New South Wales, therefore probably Sydney, but as much as I've hunted about I haven't yet found a register of what factories or specific locations the numbers referred to. It was designed to fool attackers and it's still working. As David said I have a pair of gloves that were made by V505 and this factory is probably one of two companies Stagg leathergoods and Lasicas.

There's no way of knowing for sure, but i'm wondering if this is a postwar or perhaps even more recent Irvinesque knockoff that someone's got a label from a battledress or service dress and sewn it in to give it cred. The regimental number does appear on that sort of clothing. The pockets look original to the jacket too.

RAAF personnel were not permitted to wear unofficial items of clothing (one exception I do know of was Ed Crabtree who wore US flight kit whilst with the 380th, but that was only because the RAAF apparently forgot about him up in the Top End and he ran out of local kit) so I can't see this as being a permitted exception either.

Post script!!!
I have just checked out who the seller is- don't touch it!! He has a long history of selling off dud/ mocked up gear- just post this over at here and see what kind of reaction you get.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/180748/ He has had multiple name changes over the years. Just me but I wouldn't trust it.

He has used the old Aussies/ 460Sqn / Binbrook thing before to sell stuff, and it's been alleged that even documents supposedly thrown out after the Museum closed were doctored to look original and fetch big money.

Sorry, but that's about all I can say but it'd be fun to be proven very wrong.

 

[deeb7]

Yaawwwnn! OK, i'm awake now.

Well, about time ....

See, I knew this would be sorted out, once you surfaced, but the outcome is disappointing. All I know is that the Irvin trousers were made here in NZ, because I've seen them, and as you know, Australia doesn't like to be left out.

We live in hope.

 

[Andrew]

You're right David, always blowing our little trumpet... :lol:

You would expect that the same NZ company who made the trousers also made jackets, and since the pattern of the daks appeared to match the AM approved pattern then it stands to reason the jacket would have also been made to the accepted Irvin pattern. I wonder if any of these (still) exist. I actually find that prospect a bit more interesting.

 

[deeb7]

You would expect that the same NZ company who made the trousers also made jackets ....

I think so .... I met a militaria collector who said he'd seen NZ made Irvins, but I have yet to find one. If I had realised how uncommon the trousers were, I would have tried a little harder ... they were at a local auction.

I'll keep on looking ....