Are We Losing the “Vintage “ in Vintage Leather Jackets ? .. An Opinion Piece.

[Thomas Koehle]

Just picking up on this comment: maybe I’m doing a bad thing, but I wear all of the originals I own and aren’t afraid to wear them hard. It’s probably for that reason I don’t own an original A2 or B-3, because the vast majority can’t be worn. But certainly when it comes to collecting originals, I’m only really interested in something I can feasibly wear (I.e. it’s the right size and not a total wreck).

Funnily enough, the only repros I own are an Eastman B-3 and ANJ4, i.e. the only jackets that are usually no good as originals.

well I get your and @mulcebers point - meanwhile I’m a size 46 to 48 - no way to find a wearable period A2 in such a size or it would cost me a fortune

Burt proved before it is still possible to find affordable postwar jackets in that size but that’s still postwar …

Hmmmm - maybe a G1?

 

[ausreenactor]

Where I stand on the subject is: I love originals, I own a couple of m422a jackets because they were affordable, however easonable A2s seem out of budget. As time from the end off ww2 progresses and these items get scarcer and more fragile I see them as artifacts, so jackets that were once just surplus utility wear can not be used in the same capacity. This is where the repro fits in and is why I am also enthusiastic about good quality repros, I want a jacket that is as close to the real thing as worn in the 40s.
Also it is through the analysis of repros that I have learned much about originals.
I'm still searching for originals but I will never wear one and so in my life they probably take the back burner so to speak.
Many people may therefore the even think it to be silly to buy jackets that you'll never wear and may be the reason why many enthusiasts on here don't buy originals.
I would hate for the vintage part of this forum to fade away.
It does seem ironic, but the greater part of this forum is vintage style jackets not actual vintage jackets

We will never lose touch with original jackets. Every new reproduction is forensically discussed and compared to the originals.

 

[ausreenactor]

I agree with you very much. From the perspective of manufacturers, the price of vintage jackets is increasing every year, and as time goes by, we can find fewer and fewer excellent vintage jackets. This has led to us such manufacturer, but those who are familiar with the history of military clothing will know that the products we can develop are very limited, mainly from WWII to the Vietnam War.
The high price of the vintage jackets will prevent many people from trying this style. It's not necessarily that they don't like it, but the price does not allow people to approach it. This has become a hobby of the rich.

People will always buy the top tier jackets. Trading or saving for the privilege.

It is easier to buy decent, suitable reproduction jackets these days... FiveStar will bring in a while new cohort. An element of that cohort will the start with a second hand Aero, Good Wear or ELC jacket... then will invest with a bespoke jacket....

This debate has raged for two decades...

 

[Lord Flashheart]

Thanks for your post Chris .
I think the important thing isn’t whether you own or can afford to purchase an original, as much as just keeping the focus of them alive and passing on info about them to the new guys getting into the hobby . There’s room here on VLJ for everyone’s tastes, but my point was that I think we have lost a lot of the focus on originals and vintage jackets. I agree with all of you .. this is an expensive hobby to start dropping bucks into . But you don’t need to own an original to chat about them or share some stories about them , or post some photos from a book or the web about them . Just my thoughts . And again thanks for your thoughts .

When I bumped into this Forum, more by luck than judgement, a couple of years ago or so it was really enlightening and gave me much to explore. Coming from a base of "village idiot", with a couple of modern repro's I picked up back when I used to do a little private flying, this Forum has hugely helped me to learn and explore the hobby. I've never particularly wanted to collect originals. Like Thomas I want to wear 'em.

As I have learnt more my interests have evolved and, whilst I have no personal affiliation to naval aviation, I have found the evolution of USN jackets fascinating, intelligently designed for its purpose and yet under described here compared with A-2. But for this Forum my interest in the lineage of M-422 to G-1 would have started and stopped in an 80's film and Kelly McGillis. I think there's a story no less interesting than the USAAF jacket that deserves telling more detailing here and in print. Just saying. So I have one original, an M-422A I picked up from Steve Sellers, and would only want one other original really. Like Jan it's there for very occasional light wear and 9/10 times I'll wear my ELC 55J14. I can wear that without worry.

I'll get to the point. I can see that people with more knowledge, and collections, may have drifted away from here. That's a shame but probably human nature. In reading up about the Irvin here I have looked through historic posts but it's a bit frustrating they're no longer about to share their knowledge and the pics are no longer available. I've appreciated that you've taken the time to share your own knowledge Burt and that really helps widen understanding in my opinion. Including about past repro makers too. If I could encourage more of that spirit of "show and tell" as you and others have done I think that would be positive to the knowledge of newer members like myself here.

Posting pics of repro's does not detract if there is a good balance - realising that as every year passes originals become more significant as artefacts and wearing a repro may be a more thoughtful tribute to the guys and their sacrifices for whom these were just "workwear".

 

[ausreenactor]

When I bumped into this Forum, more by luck than judgement, a couple of years ago or so it was really enlightening and gave me much to explore. Coming from a base of "village idiot", with a couple of modern repro's I picked up back when I used to do a little private flying, this Forum has hugely helped me to learn and explore the hobby. I've never particularly wanted to collect originals. Like Thomas I want to wear 'em.

As I have learnt more my interests have evolved and, whilst I have no personal affiliation to naval aviation, I have found the evolution of USN jackets fascinating, intelligently designed for its purpose and yet under described here compared with A-2. But for this Forum my interest in the lineage of M-422 to G-1 would have started and stopped in an 80's film and Kelly McGillis. I think there's a story no less interesting than the USAAF jacket that deserves telling more detailing here and in print. Just saying. So I have one original, an M-422A I picked up from Steve Sellers, and would only want one other original really. Like Jan it's there for very occasional light wear and 9/10 times I'll wear my ELC 55J14. I can wear that without worry.

I'll get to the point. I can see that people with more knowledge, and collections, may have drifted away from here. That's a shame but probably human nature. In reading up about the Irvin here I have looked through historic posts but it's a bit frustrating they're no longer about to share their knowledge and the pics are no longer available. I've appreciated that you've taken the time to share your own knowledge Burt and that really helps widen understanding in my opinion. Including about past repro makers too. If I could encourage more of that spirit of "show and tell" as you and others have done I think that would be positive to the knowledge of newer members like myself here.

Posting pics of repro's does not detract if there is a good balance - realising that as every year passes originals become more significant as artefacts and wearing a repro may be a more thoughtful tribute to the guys and their sacrifices for whom these were just "workwear".

Brilliant!

 

[Thomas Koehle]

Brilliant!

Yeah - i second that

 

[Lord Flashheart]

Having posted that essay in a hurry this morning and then bolted out the door on a bike ride one other thought came to me whilst riding. If "balance" is the problem then maybe the way the information is organised here isn't creating the optimum space to profile and share vintage jacket knowledge? Let me put it this way. If you have a vintage jacket what, if anything, might enable you to share what you've learnt in a way that newer forum members could learn from in future without endless searches and blind alleys ? What would make the difference (if anything)?

Case in point. The other original I'd collect would be a wired Irvin. There's a gap in my knowledge about them but I would love to learn more and I feel sure others here might just know stuff I'd appreciate. But it's a "known unknown..."

YMMV

 

[Spitfireace]

We will never lose touch with original jackets. Every new reproduction is forensically discussed and compared to the originals.

Real is real. Nothing will ever touch the real. A real issued jacket is the only thing as far as military jackets go. When you put on a real issued jacket, you know it was worn by a real pilot. The knockoffs don't have that feeling, you can't replace that feeling no matter how good a copy it is.

 

[dinomartino1]

Going back a while ago in the days when bad boy Senico, JC etc where still around there would have just as much interest in five star as there is now, people have alway bemoaned the prices of jackets but there would have been some very heated debates and criticism.
I got into the forum because of an interest in Korean war nylon jackets and did not post much mainly Korean war pics. I am in the minority here as my main interest is USN, I like A-2s but I would not be willing to spend a lot on one.
My own two cents worth is that the forum might be called the vintage and reproduction flight jacket forum, I always thought the forum name was bit off as it has always mainly been about flight jackets of all types, the fedora lounge always been the real vintage leather jackets forum.

Prices for me now actually seen to be reasonable for some originals compared to the top tier repros, I know Burt is in agreement with me on that and I do appreciate your efforts lately to start threads to try and generate more contributions of originals, I can't add much as I don't have a big collection of original jackets.
All my original jackets are USN.
1950 G-1 with vey rare Korean war patches.
1959 G-1
Deadstock 1966 G-1
Deadstock 1950s USN summer flight suit.
I was very, very fortunate to get those at really cheap prices but they where all on ebay and I have just added up the total cost for all the above including taxes, shipping and getting Mr. Sellers to put new knits on a G-1 and then posting to me in Australia and it was USD $403 cheaper than buying the cheapest A-2 I could see on the Eastman site which was USD $1,318.36.
Like I said before I did get some very good bargains through poor descriptions in ebay listings but they where there on ebay for anybody to see.

I got my first G-1 in 1984, now I knew nothing about G-1s but I had watched the Bridges at Toko-Ri on the telly for the umpteenth time and the next day I was walking down the Kings Road in Chelsea and I see a brown leather jacket with a fur collar in the window so I walked up to the have look, hey it's got pockets with buttons just like William Holdens, now I get really excited and go into the shop and ask them to take the jacket off the mannequin and as the shop assistant unzips it and I see the USN on the windflap. I try it on and it fits perfectly and I'm as happy as a pig in a pen full of poop, my first real flight jacket and its a genuine USN one. I could not believe my luck things never used to go my way, as my old man used to say if Elizabeth Taylor had triplets I would have been the one in the middle. Real G-1s where very rare in the UK back then.

 

[Thomas Koehle]

Real is real. Nothing will ever touch the real. A real issued jacket is the only thing as far as military jackets go. When you put on a real issued jacket, you know it was worn by a real pilot. The knockoffs don't have that feeling, you can't replace that feeling no matter how good a copy it is.

Point is if you're a size 46 or 48 you will probably not be able to find a period jacket

 

[ausreenactor]

Real is real. Nothing will ever touch the real. A real issued jacket is the only thing as far as military jackets go. When you put on a real issued jacket, you know it was worn by a real pilot. The knockoffs don't have that feeling, you can't replace that feeling no matter how good a copy it is.

There is no real way to prove an unadorned jacket was issued, let alone established a robust sortie history.

I only have one original Bronce, purchased from Ken @Aero. The jacket has wear, CAPT bars, stitch holes from a Squadron patch. There is an assumption that it was issued and worn during the War. Could have been an Ops officer or S2... never went airborne.

There are some reproduction jackets here with more flying hours that most people... The stories of those jackets can be more interesting than a preserved or forgotten A-2 that came out of the bottom of Dad's trunk many years after the War...

 

[MaydayWei]

Point is if you're a size 46 or 48 you will probably not be able to find a period jacket

I've been seeing quite a few early 70s NOS 7823E model G-1s in 46 in the past few weeks. Would you like me to shoot you a link if I come across one?

 

[MaydayWei]

@Thomas Koehle
Original Rolen Sportswear B-15D in 46, Great shape. Starting bid at 9.99 USD.

Rare Original USAF B-15D Intermediate Flight Jacket - Large Size 46 - Very Nice | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Rare Original USAF B-15D Intermediate Flight Jacket - Large Size 46 - Very Nice at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Original '68 Brill bros 7823D (WP) G-1, size 46, in great condition! Starting bid at 22.99 USD.

M8486 VTG Men's Military Intermediate G-1 Leather Flight Bomber Jacket Size 46 | eBay

Actual colors may vary. This is due to the fact that every computer monitor has a different capability to display colors and that everyone sees these colors differently. Length (top of the collar to hem).

www.ebay.com

 

[ausreenactor]

@Thomas Koehle
Original Rolen Sportswear B-15D in 46, Great shape. Starting bid at 9.99 USD.
Not a G-1, though!

Rare Original USAF B-15D Intermediate Flight Jacket - Large Size 46 - Very Nice | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Rare Original USAF B-15D Intermediate Flight Jacket - Large Size 46 - Very Nice at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Bargain at the moment.