Anything and Everything A-1

[Simon Debrux]

My now departed Lost World's had the best collar, cuffs and waistband of any A-1 I've seen, including my capeskin Eastman and an Aero I was sent as a sample. They were significantly firmer and, I'm pretty sure, harder wearing than the relatively flimsy knits on the other jackets. I also preferred the LW cotton lining. An Eastman capeskin jacket with LW knits and lining would be the perfect A-1 as far as I am concerned.
I am not going to make myself popular by saying this as there have been some beautiful jackets posted in this thread, but only a couple of the examples we've seen have that authentic period look. After looking at original black and white photos of pre-war aviators the differences leap out at you. The most obvious is the size of the pockets which on an original were barely large enough for a slim wallet. Some of the replicas look easily big enough to accommodate a shorthand notebook, with Dumbo ear-size flaps to match. I also dislike the baggy "stove pipe" sleeves I have seen on some examples. Essentially the A-1 was a lightweight windcheater-style jacket to be worn, as it says on the label, for "summer" flying. Heavy weight horsehide like that used by LW makes a far heavier, more solid jacket that just looks wrong though it is hard to see the difference when it is photographed flat on the floor.
Some people may ask whether it really matters as long as the jacket is well made. I think it does. If you are paying a significant premium to buy a replica of a 1920s jacket you want it to look like a 1920s jacket.

S

 

[airfrogusmc]

My now departed Lost World's had the best collar, cuffs and waistband of any A-1 I've seen, including my capeskin Eastman and an Aero I was sent as a sample. They were significantly firmer and, I'm pretty sure, harder wearing than the relatively flimsy knits on the other jackets. I also preferred the LW cotton lining. An Eastman capeskin jacket with LW knits and lining would be the perfect A-1 as far as I am concerned.
I am not going to make myself popular by saying this as there have been some beautiful jackets posted in this thread, but only a couple of the examples we've seen have that authentic period look. After looking at original black and white photos of pre-war aviators the differences leap out at you. The most obvious is the size of the pockets which on an original were barely large enough for a slim wallet. Some of the replicas look easily big enough to accommodate a shorthand notebook, with Dumbo ear-size flaps to match. I also dislike the baggy "stove pipe" sleeves I have seen on some examples. Essentially the A-1 was a lightweight windcheater-style jacket to be worn, as it says on the label, for "summer" flying. Heavy weight horsehide like that used by LW makes a far heavier, more solid jacket that just looks wrong though it is hard to see the difference when it is photographed flat on the floor.
Some people may ask whether it really matters as long as the jacket is well made. I think it does. If you are paying a significant premium to buy a replica of a 1920s jacket you want it to look like a 1920s jacket.

S

GW nails it I think.

 

[Simon Debrux]

GW nails it I think.

The GW is beautiful. The knits look good quality and the pockets are much closer to the original than some I've seen but I am not convinced the A-1 would have had that broken in appearance, at least when new (leaving aside the OD question for now!). For me the Eastman, a stitch perfect copy of an original, is about as good as it gets.

 

[John Lever]

As we say here it's the Dogs bollocks.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Unless Eastmans made drastic knit changes I'll go with the GW. And there doesn't appear to be a real standard for this jacket. Some were very dark, one piece backs, cape, goat, horse, maybe cow, you name it high pockets, low pockets, small pockets, two piece backs, two piece arms, three piece arms, etc..

 

[Chandler]

GW nails it I think.

Tell me that one doesn't have hand-warmer pockets, please?

Izzit just the way the hide is falling around the left-hand pocket?

Chandler

 

[Simon Debrux]

there doesn't appear to be a real standard for this jacket. Some were very dark, one piece backs, cape, goat, horse, maybe cow, you name it high pockets, low pockets, small pockets, two piece backs, two piece arms, three piece arms, etc..

I agree up to a point, however there is remarkable consistency on one thing: no matter where they're placed none of the pockets of the originals are the size of a small bucket.

S

 

[Miles_Archer]

Unless Eastmans made drastic knit changes I'll go with the GW. And there doesn't appear to be a real standard for this jacket. Some were very dark, one piece backs, cape, goat, horse, maybe cow, you name it high pockets, low pockets, small pockets, two piece backs, two piece arms, three piece arms, etc..

The knits on the Eastman are fine.
While there are drastic differences in pocket placement between Army and Navy/Marine A-1s,the only three original jackets (w/spec tag intact) I have seen in photos were virtually identical (two piece back, two piece sleeves, etc). I think most of the jackets we see in photos of early aviators are probably civilian in origin. The basic A-1 pattern was popular for at least 10 years before the military adopted it and was popular for roughly 10 years after the military abandoned it.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Unless Eastmans made drastic knit changes I'll go with the GW. And there doesn't appear to be a real standard for this jacket. Some were very dark, one piece backs, cape, goat, horse, maybe cow, you name it high pockets, low pockets, small pockets, two piece backs, two piece arms, three piece arms, etc..

The knits on the Eastman are fine.
While there are drastic differences in pocket placement between Army and Navy/Marine A-1s,the only three original jackets (w/spec tag intact) I have seen in photos were virtually identical (two piece back, two piece sleeves, etc). I think most of the jackets we see in photos of early aviators are probably civilian in origin. The basic A-1 pattern was popular for at least 10 years before the military adopted it and was popular for roughly 10 years after the military abandoned it.

They are? I've owned several eastmans and within 6 months all were in pretty humble shape. There are plenty of 60 + year originals with still good knits.

There was a one piece back original I posted photos of on the old site.

 

[airfrogusmc]

GW nails it I think.

Tell me that one doesn't have hand-warmer pockets, please?

Izzit just the way the hide is falling around the left-hand pocket?

Chandler

Just the way the leather folds, funny how photos can decive.

 

[Simon Debrux]

I think most of the jackets we see in photos of early aviators are probably civilian in origin.

Hi Miles, That might be the case with individuals such as Charles Lingbergh but there are a lot of pictures in this thread showing groups of serving airmen wearing near identical A-1s. Yes, pocket placement varied between branches of the service and probably between contract manufacturers but in the pictures of pilots in the same unit they are nearly all the same which would not be the case if they were private purchase / civilian. S

 

[bseal]

Yes, most, if not all of the pictures of the AAC pilots in A-1s do indeed seem to have low placed, small/slim pockets.

Simon, I understand your statement about taking the best design and matching it with the best components (from different manufacturers). You can do this with custom work; knits and lining from G&B, antique bakelite buttons from a source in the UK, design by me:

What I like about Goodwear, is that John will make the A-1 to your specifications, and is happy to use materials that you personally source (if that is your disposition). US Authentic has the same policy. On a side note, John indicated that he is the process of procuring wool knits that bear a strong resemblance to the ones that LW's uses. Talk about coincidence. Contact him directly for more info.

 

[Doug C]

Simon Debrux wrote:

My now departed Lost World's had the best collar, cuffs and waistband of any A-1 I've seen, including my capeskin Eastman and an Aero I was sent as a sample. They were significantly firmer and, I'm pretty sure, harder wearing than the relatively flimsy knits on the other jackets.

I knew it !! Not just my imagination.. glad to hear that I'm not the only one to notice this difference in wool feel.

Doug C

 

[Miles_Archer]

Unless Eastmans made drastic knit changes I'll go with the GW. And there doesn't appear to be a real standard for this jacket. Some were very dark, one piece backs, cape, goat, horse, maybe cow, you name it high pockets, low pockets, small pockets, two piece backs, two piece arms, three piece arms, etc..

The knits on the Eastman are fine.
While there are drastic differences in pocket placement between Army and Navy/Marine A-1s,the only three original jackets (w/spec tag intact) I have seen in photos were virtually identical (two piece back, two piece sleeves, etc). I think most of the jackets we see in photos of early aviators are probably civilian in origin. The basic A-1 pattern was popular for at least 10 years before the military adopted it and was popular for roughly 10 years after the military abandoned it.

They are? I've owned several eastmans and within 6 months all were in pretty humble shape. There are plenty of 60 + year originals with still good knits.

There was a one piece back original I posted photos of on the old site.

I was referring specifically to the Eastman A-1 knits. Have you handled one yet? But all of the recent Eastman A-2s I have seen have great knits as well. The Werber's are particularly well done.
I remember that photo you refer to, it looked like a typical civilian jacket of the era. The "A-1" style jacket was by far the predominant pattern of short men's leather/suede/moleskin/wool jackets of the late 1910's to the mid 1930's and EVERYBODY wore them. They were marketed to aviators, motorcyclists, workmen and even as golf jackets. I think we all stress the military connection of the pattern too much. This was a very common jacket. Unless it has a spec label or squadron patch/nametag I'm just not buying it as an "A-1".

 

[Miles_Archer]

I think most of the jackets we see in photos of early aviators are probably civilian in origin.

Hi Miles, That might be the case with individuals such as Charles Lingbergh but there are a lot of pictures in this thread showing groups of serving airmen wearing near identical A-1s. Yes, pocket placement varied between branches of the service and probably between contract manufacturers but in the pictures of pilots in the same unit they are nearly all the same which would not be the case if they were private purchase / civilian. S

You are kind of arguing for my own point. I agree The military issued jackets adhered to specific specs and were not really "all over the place".
But on the other hand, I don't doubt that an entire Army/Navy/Marine squadrons may have put private orders in (to firms like Block Bilt or Gordon and Ferguson) for custom A-1 jackets much like a football team might. These guys were mostly officers who paid for their own custom-tailored uniforms and bespoke boots why wouldn't they do the same for their jackets occasionally? Might account for some of the drastic variance between squadrons of the same branch.

 

[airfrogusmc]

The knits on the Eastman are fine.
While there are drastic differences in pocket placement between Army and Navy/Marine A-1s,the only three original jackets (w/spec tag intact) I have seen in photos were virtually identical (two piece back, two piece sleeves, etc). I think most of the jackets we see in photos of early aviators are probably civilian in origin. The basic A-1 pattern was popular for at least 10 years before the military adopted it and was popular for roughly 10 years after the military abandoned it.[/quote]

They are? I've owned several eastmans and within 6 months all were in pretty humble shape. There are plenty of 60 + year originals with still good knits.

There was a one piece back original I posted photos of on the old site.[/quote]

I was referring specifically to the Eastman A-1 knits. Have you handled one yet? But all of the recent Eastman A-2s I have seen have great knits as well. The Werber's are particularly well done.
I remember that photo you refer to, it looked like a typical civilian jacket of the era. The "A-1" style jacket was by far the predominant pattern of short men's leather/suede/moleskin/wool jackets of the late 1910's to the mid 1930's and EVERYBODY wore them. They were marketed to aviators, motorcyclists, workmen and even as golf jackets. I think we all stress the military connection of the pattern too much. This was a very common jacket. Unless it has a spec label or squadron patch/nametag I'm just not buying it as an "A-1".[/quote]

They must have CHANGED their knits because I'm not the only one thats had problems. I remember having a conversation at great length one time at Pauls with Grant, Paul and a few others about how their knits.

There was also a picture of a pilot with his back turned enough to see in was a one piece. Musta been a private purchase because all the original issued ones were two piece :roll: :roll:

 

[zoomer]

I don't doubt that an entire Army/Navy/Marine squadrons may have put private orders in (to firms like Block Bilt or Gordon and Ferguson) for custom A-1 jackets much like a football team might. These guys were mostly officers who paid for their own custom-tailored uniforms and bespoke boots why wouldn't they do the same for their jackets occasionally?[/quote]I think at that point, and probably up till the war, it may have been [i]only[/i] officers who were allowed jackets. There are 30s photos of plane crews with the pilot and perhaps copilot in A-2s and the other crewmen in coveralls.

The huge guy in the middle of the pic above certainly argues for a group purchase. Even a size 46 was pushing your luck in off the rack clothing then.

 

[Chandler]

They are? I've owned several eastmans and within 6 months all were in pretty humble shape. There are plenty of 60 + year originals with still good knits.

I've also owned several ELCs (still do) and never had a knit problem. There you go with that broad brush again.

And at the time I bought my first A-2 "repro" my dad warned me about knits because my grandfather bought my dad and my uncle surplus A-2s (no, they're long gone) and dad said the cuffs turned into "doughnuts" before very long -- that was '46, guess that's vintage enough to add a little history to the mix.

Chandler

 

[airfrogusmc]

They are? I've owned several eastmans and within 6 months all were in pretty humble shape. There are plenty of 60 + year originals with still good knits.

I've also owned several ELCs (still do) and never had a knit problem. There you go with that broad brush again.

And at the time I bought my first A-2 "repro" my dad warned me about knits because my grandfather bought my dad and my uncle surplus A-2s (no, they're long gone) and dad said the cuffs turned into "doughnuts" before very long -- that was '46, guess that's vintage enough to add a little history to the mix.

Chandler

OK lets see all the folks that had bad knits from Eastman. There were a bunch on the old site. Man to bad Paul doesn't post here anymore. Not many here have seen more originals than he has though you wouldn't listen anyway. Could be why he doesn't post here anymore :? There are plenty of 60 + year old originals with good original knits. NOT ALL but there are plenty.

 

[hacker]

........though you wouldn't listen anyway. Could be why he doesn't post here anymore :?

What a boatload!.......Nobody listens to you...and you post every DAY!!!!!!!...... ............



:lol: :lol: