Anything and Everything A-1

[jack aranda]

Hi, Mark:
On this Aero A-1:
--the arm seam meets the yoke seam 2 3/4" behind the shoulder seam.
--the body is fuller at the bottom than your #4 (my guide to comparison for you), more like a sweater.
--the pockets are 6 3/4" across, as opposed to the 5 3/4" of your #4; same depth.
--sleeves roll off the shoulder, raglan style, not squared up like an A-2.
--A-1 sleeves go from 9" across at the top to 5 1/2" at the cuff. Your #4 goes from 8" to 5 1/2".

And then there are all the technical difference referenced by deeb7. I'm not a technical spec guy (yet? ever?); I just love these amazing jackets :!:

I hope this helps a little, Mark. If there are other specific bits of data you'd like, I'll try to supply them for you.

Take care. You too, deeb7.

 

[fishmeok]

Interesting- I thought that the felled arm seam met the yoke seam. That's how I have it now, anyway.

Strangely, the Suit Up original has it the other way, and I imagine that Real McCoy, and the Japanese makers referred to this.

The Eastman example is as you describe, so at some point the pattern was changed, and the arms rotated.

Both versions show the same label with Order No. 31-800 P. I wonder which came first, and why it was modified.

That is interesting- the only real advantage I see is that putting the seam further back on the yoke puts the natural curve of the pattern on the outside of the arm more along the elbow- maybe easier to construct the curve of the sleeve? I've only built them where the felled seam is behind the shoulder, like on an A-2.
Cheers
Mark

 

[fishmeok]

Hi, Mark:
On this Aero A-1:
--the arm seam meets the yoke seam 2 3/4" behind the shoulder seam.
--the body is fuller at the bottom than your #4 (my guide to comparison for you), more like a sweater.
--the pockets are 6 3/4" across, as opposed to the 5 3/4" of your #4; same depth.
--sleeves roll off the shoulder, raglan style, not squared up like an A-2.
--A-1 sleeves go from 9" across at the top to 5 1/2" at the cuff. Your #4 goes from 8" to 5 1/2".

And then there are all the technical difference referenced by deeb7. I'm not a technical spec guy (yet? ever?); I just love these amazing jackets :!:

I hope this helps a little, Mark. If there are other specific bits of data you'd like, I'll try to supply them for you.

Take care. You too, deeb7.

Thanks- looks like I'm on the right track then. Do you find it more comfortable with the larger armhole?
Cheers
Mark

 

[jack aranda]

Do you find it more comfortable with the larger armhole?
Cheers
Mark

No, the difference is negligible. The difference in fit has more to do with the shoulder design--"raglan" vs "squared up". If the shoulder is the right size, the fit is good, either way. These are both a size 44, they both fit well. From the archival pics I've seen in this thread it looks like the A-1 could be a bit snugger, but, I'm not sure I'd like it if it were. In cold weather, I wear a chamois shirt with the tails cut off under my flight jackets for warmth. If either of these--the A-1 or #4-- were any smaller, I'd have a hard time layering. So, I'm happy with this fit, even if the A-1 may be slightly bigger through the shoulders than originally intended. Probably way more than you wanted, but, I'm trying to give you some info you can use.

 

[Doug C]

Great lookin jackets everyone! Fishmeok, I just thought I'd comment about the shoulder seam of my Eastman A-1 (it's a new pattern one). The shoulder seams angle back quite a bit, and make the yolk seem smaller to me. I haven't read everything you've posted above, but I think you mentioned that the shoulder seams should be forward and I just wanted to let you know that the Eastman pattern is not that way, and this pattern is pretty distinctive IMHO.

Doug C

 

[deeb7]

I like the look of the Eastman ...

Whilst Mark is gathering data, I will add that mine is very squared up in the shoulders. The shoulder seam is positioned the same as an A-2, and measures only 6".

The arms taper from 11" down to 5" at the cuff ... it's that fullness in the upper arm area that I was describing as "semi leg o' mutton", and this dictates the narrow back measurements.

The more I compare, the more I notice how different the A-1 design is to the A-2. For example, Mark was saying ... 2) More tapered back with less gathering at the waist ... in fact there is no gathering at all.

My point being, that to create an A-1 pattern it might be easier to start from scratch ....

 

[fishmeok]

I like the look of the Eastman ...

Whilst Mark is gathering data, I will add that mine is very squared up in the shoulders. The shoulder seam is positioned the same as an A-2, and measures only 6".

The arms taper from 11" down to 5" at the cuff ... it's that fullness in the upper arm area that I was describing as "semi leg o' mutton", and this dictates the narrow back measurements.

The more I compare, the more I notice how different the A-1 design is to the A-2. For example, Mark was saying ... 2) More tapered back with less gathering at the waist ... in fact there is no gathering at all.

My point being, that to create an A-1 pattern it might be easier to start from scratch ....

That's assuming one actually has the ability to make a pattern from scratch...

Something I noticed after making a couple jackets is the different positions of the shoulder seams. I couldn't figure out why the pattern I made from the civi '40's jacket just didn't look and hang like an A-2 (not that it looked bad, just not quite A-2 enough for my O.C.D. monkey). After some trial and experimentation I realized that the shoulder seam on my Goodwear A-2 tapers toward the back an inch or so from the neck. The civi jacket I was basing my patterns on went almost straight along the top of the shoulder. I re-made the pattern to make it more like the Dubow. I also noticed also that the bottom front tapers down an inch from the side seam to the zipper. I made the changes on jacket #4 and bang- it looked "right".

The cloth A-1 test jacket I'm working on now started off using the same pattern, but modified to move the shoulder seam forward one inch (at the shoulder, 1/2" at the neck) and I tried to make the neck hole a little more round. The way I have it set up now I'm tapering the back from 26" pit to pit down to 23" at the waistknit. The arms start about 10" wide and end up around 5", although it's a straight taper, not a "mutton chop" shape. The rest is fairly standard, but I'm putting A-2 pockets on in the A-2 position, just don't like that tiny pocket-right-on-the-waistband look. It would be almost done, but I forgot to order a couple extra waist knit bands so I'm out of material until next week.
Cheers
Mark

 

[deeb7]

That's assuming one actually has the ability to make a pattern from scratch...

Well don't be looking at me. :?

The cloth A-1 test jacket I'm working on now started off using the same pattern, but modified to move the shoulder seam forward one inch (at the shoulder, 1/2" at the neck) and I tried to make the neck hole a little more round. The way I have it set up now I'm tapering the back from 26" pit to pit down to 23" at the waistknit. The arms start about 10" wide and end up around 5", although it's a straight taper, not a "mutton chop" shape. The rest is fairly standard, but I'm putting A-2 pockets on in the A-2 position, just don't like that tiny pocket-right-on-the-waistband look. It would be almost done, but I forgot to order a couple extra waist knit bands so I'm out of material until next week.

Oh excellent, so it's well advanced, good luck with it. I think that one of the difficulties might be getting it to sit right in the chest area, when fully buttoned.

And HA !! So it's not just me that liked those dinky pockets ... for about five minutes.

 

[arahat]

Sorry about this less-than-relevant topic post.

I've been trying to get JC recently about getting a goatskin GW A-1.
After the first reply through email JC seemed to have stopped communicating.
Just wondering if anyone else is experiencing the same thing?
Or perhaps somebody knows he's away or tied up in other matters?

Regards

 

[jack aranda]

The civi jacket I was basing my patterns on went almost straight along the top of the shoulder. I re-made the pattern to make it more like the Dubow. I also noticed also that the bottom front tapers down an inch from the side seam to the zipper. I made the changes on jacket #4 and bang- it looked "right".

Amen to that, Mark. Here's #4:

[URL=http://good-times.webshots.com...3701/2604531500104585873S425x425Q85.jpg[/img][/url]

Hmmm, a fishmeok original one-of-a-kind A-1...

 

[fishmeok]

Sorry about this less-than-relevant topic post.

I've been trying to get JC recently about getting a goatskin GW A-1.
After the first reply through email JC seemed to have stopped communicating.
Just wondering if anyone else is experiencing the same thing?
Or perhaps somebody knows he's away or tied up in other matters?

Regards

I'd just give him a call- I know he had to go to California early part of the month. More fun to talk on the phone anyway.

Cheers
Mark

 

[fishmeok]

Pics so far. Until I get some knits though I'm stuck.
Cheers
Mark

 

[Doug C]

fishmeok wrote:

and I tried to make the neck hole a little more round.

That's a good point, it certainly should be...

also:

but I'm putting A-2 pockets on in the A-2 position,

Man you had me worried when I read that because A-2s have the rounded pocket corners that I think would look terrible on an A-1.... however I see that you did angle the corners and it looks great, the flaps are cool too. Do you plan to top-stitch the knits to the leather or not? Great job so far!

Doug C

 

[zoomer]

Hey fish! Is that a cloth mockup A-1 yer doing?!
I might actually want that when you're finished!

 

[bfrench]

Pics so far. Until I get some knits though I'm stuck.
Cheers
Mark

Hi, Mark,

How do you go about determining the shoulder to shoulder measurement and the shoulder seam to neck measurements for a particular pattern size?

Bill French

 

[fishmeok]

fishmeok wrote:

and I tried to make the neck hole a little more round.

That's a good point, it certainly should be...

also:

but I'm putting A-2 pockets on in the A-2 position,

Man you had me worried when I read that because A-2s have the rounded pocket corners that I think would look terrible on an A-1.... however I see that you did angle the corners and it looks great, the flaps are cool too. Do you plan to top-stitch the knits to the leather or not? Great job so far!

Doug C

From the originals and some of the repros I've seen on this and the F.L. A-1 threads some of the pockets appear top be double topstiched, "USN" style pockets, and others aren't- but I think this version looks best. I will be double topstiching the waist and up the center like on the genuine article. Probably the cuffs too, while I'm at it. I can't tell you how annoyed I am that I forgot to get knits, this thing was really coming along the last couple days.
Cheers
Mark

 

[fishmeok]

Hey fish! Is that a cloth mockup A-1 yer doing?!
I might actually want that when you're finished!

let's see how it works out, I still have many, many opportunities to completly screw it up...

Otherwise I'm sending it to a fellow VLJ'er for a test fit, but no plans beyond that. I'll PM you when it's done.
Cheers
Mark

BTW it's a heavy cotton twill, almost feels like nylon, and it will have a tan cloth liner with reddish brown knits. Have not found the buttons I want yet, but I think they should be a darker color to go with the shell.

 

[fishmeok]

Pics so far. Until I get some knits though I'm stuck.
Cheers
Mark

Hi, Mark,

How do you go about determining the shoulder to shoulder measurement and the shoulder seam to neck measurements for a particular pattern size?

Bill French

That is still something of a mystery to me as well- the pattern sizes vary so much it is extremely difficult to tell what tagged size comfortably fits what chest size (one of the reasons I've been making things in my size- I know what it should be). The theory as I understand it is that the chest should be about 2" bigger than the person it's going to fit. I know I need about a 7-7.5" epaulet, 19-20" shoulder, and 25" or so pit to pit across the back. That makes about 48 inches around the chest, and the actual size of people it fits is around 44. So there goes that rule.

A WWII Aero marked 44 has a 19.5 shoulder, 7" epaulet, and is 25" across the back. A Doniger 44 has a 19" shoulder, 24.5 across the back, and a 7" epaulet. A WWII size 40 Aero has 17.5 shoulders, 23" across the back, and 6 1/4" epaulets. A size 44 Avirex A-2 (one of the better ones, not the oversized monstrosities) has 22" shoulders 27.5 across the back, and 7.5 " epaulets. So todays 44 is a vintage 46, but that really does not equate to a hard rule for chest circumference VS tag size either.

Another problem is that the neckhole, armhole, etc are not directly proportionally changed as the size goes up or down. The size 40 Aero has an 18" Circumference, while the 44 Aero is 19" . The 40 Aero has a 22" armhole and the 44 has a 23.5" armhole. It gets very confusing very fast. I'm slowly developing a feel for what fits what, but I'm still not confident enough to try and make a full on size 40.

As Dave mentioned, the A-1 is different again, with a narrower back. This is one of those lifelong learning things...
Cheers
Mark

 

[bfrench]

[SNIP

It gets very confusing very fast. I'm slowly developing a feel for what fits what, but I'm still not confident enough to try and make a full on size 40.

As Dave mentioned, the A-1 is different again, with a narrower back. This is one of those lifelong learning things...
Cheers
Mark

Hi, Mark,

You wouldn't think it but making a jacket is about as difficult as designing a small airplane - change one little thing and every thing else goes for a crap.

Bill French

 

[fishmeok]

Got the knits, I'll have this thing done tomorrow. I'm pretty happy with the way it is turning out.

With the buttons I'm using: