A little help on jacket insignias

[unclegrumpy]

That tunic is an odd duck! I am not sure I would want to pay much for it without knowing a bit more about the guys history....more than just a picture of him wearing it. If you have his name, you could probably track the PH down.

You are right....it is hard to understand how he got away with wearing the Wing....it should not be there like that.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Can we see the pics? Do they look staged? Is there anything else in the pics to substantiate his enlistment like other soldiers or evidence of a base?

Also, I'm wondering about the Purple Heart, why on top? was he wounded on the way to basic training? I thought decorations were place in order of receiving them.

I know things were a little loose back then, but this seems ridiculous. I once woke up late for guard mount and threw on some fatigues that I didn't have my tags and squadron patch sewn on yet. Standing at attention, the Flight Chief pulled me out of ranks, disarmed me, and rearmed me with a snow shovel for the next week. So I can't imagine this could be legit.

 

[unclegrumpy]

I'm wondering about the Purple Heart, why on top? was he wounded on the way to basic training? I thought decorations were place in order of receiving them.

The PH is in the correct spot. Campaign ribbons generally go in the order you earned them in, with the foreign ones trailing the US ones. Everything else....good conduct medal and up...goes in a set order of precedence. The PH is this fellow's highest award.

The ribbon I am not so sure about the placement of is the Korean Unit Citation....that one generally goes above the other breast pocket for Army guys, but in the ribbon rack for Air Force and Navy guys.

You are 100% right about the level of scrutiny! Hard to believe this would have made it passed any inspection.

 

[dmar836]

I guess I don't know what "legit" is. It's established that this could not have been protocol or even allowed. Staged as in a modern pic? Staged in Korea?
I certainly don't propose some elite flying tank corps in Korea so all I can go with is what I've seen. I believe this was from the family but it isn't in my collection. I don't recall what other papers were with it but I remember that pic and, though it may have been hamming it up with the wings shown, was period or a copy of a period photo. The owner assumed it was a put together from multiple family members until the family later brought in the pic and paper.
Might be fun to research obviously separate of the wings as they have no bearing on the tunic other than to show odd assemblies show up with stories other than being put together.
Family stories are often misunderstood compilations as well.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Staged modern, or in Korea, whatever. Legit means legitimate, or at the very least, conceivable. I've seen a lot that just doesn't make sense, but on the other hand doesn't make sense as a fake either. For instance, I found a D-bale Paratrooper helmet with factory applied infantry straps. One guy went nuts on me as if I put it together. I wonder if the jacket just might be "legit" otherwise any officer would rip that NCO a new one if he was walking around in an blatantly unauthorized uniform. When I say staged, I mean anything in the pic that suggests he was on a base and open to the possibility of getting nailed for it. The pic could have been taken in privacy. I don't question what you saw, or imply that your calling it an elite flying tank corps, I just thought you had the pics with the photos of the jacket, and that maybe there was a clue in the pics. Sorry if you feel I questioned the legitimacy of your story. I'd go back through this thread to see if you mentioned not having the photos or whatever, but I've lost interest here. Over and out.

 

[dmar836]

Ditto. Thought it added but now it's old topic.

 

[unclegrumpy]

Yep. I think the moral of the story is a reminder of the added appreciation that should be given to things that have something interesting about them, and are as they were when the guys came home in them. When you think about it, not that much actually clears that bar.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

"The call for replacements from the AAF into the Infantry affected more than the 8th Air Force. I was researching a pilot from the 313th Troop Carrier Group and in their war diary, it often mentions X number of men have left for the Infantry. I don't think these were all volunteers either"

The preceding quote is by no means proof that some of these oddball uniforms are "legit", or in other words authorized. It is from another forum that I frequent and just happened to run into it. Maybe, and I repeat maybe, a wing badge was authorized much in the same way a U.S. aviator wore an British pilot wing above the right chest. I try to be very open minded if I decide to participate in a topic here on VLJ, and my input is usually very neutral. Like I can't say yes for sure and I can't say no for sure. I just try to offer whatever comes to mind from what I've seen, read, or heard. So please take this as just a bit of info to consider, rather than me contesting any members knowledge.

For those of you that have the time, I highly recommend
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/
There you will find a wealth of knowledge in all areas of U.S. military collecting. It's where I got my rules of thumb to manage collecting and selling of groups. A lot of good guys there willing to join a conversation with I think rather than I know. I can hardly remember a single instance where emotions got the better of members. Feel like I'm in a pssn contest weekly here sometimes, so maybe we could expand our horizons a bit and seek some answers there for the benefit of this forum.

 

[unclegrumpy]

There are many many cases where troops that were not in the Infantry branch were handed rifles and used as such. Sometimes their units were used like Infantry for their entire time in combat. However, unless the unit actually became a part of the Infantry branch or one individually changed their service classification to an Infantry one, they would not qualify for a CIB.

On the unit level, it was uncommon for them to be switched, and there are still many who served in Artillery, Armor, Signal Corps, and Engineer units that feel that they deserving of the same recognition because they held a rifle and got shot at just as much.

I suspect that many of the fellows in the diary you mention that "left for the Infantry" were being transferred out of the AAF branch as well. Most I bet were replacements or folks that were not for some reason or another getting the job done. By 1944, the AAF was getting more low level guys volunteering than they could use....but the Infantry wasn't.

In the end, we are still talking about if a certain badge belongs on a uniform. It is very easy for someone to pin something on that does not belong. They did not just hand CIB's out to anybody. Those guys earned then, and had paperwork in their files to prove it.

That is not to say that guys did not transfer or change branches, so there is some room for some oddities to exist. However, I don't think it was that common. And most of these oddities were corrected along the way....like the Air Force after the war making guys take off their CIBs and replace them with Bronze Star ribbons...to make sure that their uniforms stayed "uniform"....which is really the point of it all anyway.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

There are many many cases where troops that were not in the Infantry branch were handed rifles and used as such. Sometimes their units were used like Infantry for their entire time in combat. However, unless the unit actually became a part of the Infantry branch or one individually changed their service classification to an Infantry one, they would not qualify for a CIB.

On the unit level, it was uncommon for them to be switched, and there are still many who served in Artillery, Armor, Signal Corps, and Engineer units that feel that they deserving of the same recognition because they held a rifle and got shot at just as much.

I suspect that many of the fellows in the diary you mention that "left for the Infantry" were being transferred out of the AAF branch as well. Most I bet were replacements or folks that were not for some reason or another getting the job done. By 1944, the AAF was getting more low level guys volunteering than they could use....but the Infantry wasn't.

So do you think this is the case with the Korean War Flying Tank Corps Guy?

 

[unclegrumpy]

Hard to say.

However, if the wing was not there and the branch disc was Infantry, that would be a a pretty normal looking Korean War tunic....though it would be nice to have slightly better pictures....and the guys name to try and track the unit he was in...which could probably be done if the PH is legitimate.

The story with it makes some sense. If the guy only trained in WW II, but was discharged right after the war before he had much time in, then those were some of the first guys that got called back for Korea, and went strait into the Infantry....that is what happened to my father.

However, he would not have been allowed to wear the wing like that. I bet he stuck that on later after he was out of the service. It would also be interesting to know if he actually ever earned the Gunners Wing or just thought he did.

As far as the Armor brass, again hard to say. The most likely explanation for that is he might have been in an Armor unit in the Reserves after Korea. Maybe he got sent home when he got wounded and did not have enough time in to get discharged without putting in some reserve time.

Those are some possible explanations beyond the obvious one....that some idiot mucked up an otherwise decent Korean War tunic.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Another copy and paste from that ongoing conversation-

There's such a potential for a weird and wonderful combination of insignia on such a "volunteer's" uniform. I wonder if anyone has an EM's four-pocket with AAF skills badges, an 8th AF patch, an Army divisional patch plus a CIB!?

 

[unclegrumpy]

I am not saying it could never happen, but I think this "volunteer" stuff is probably mostly dreaming. Unless a guy was a screw up, it does not make sense to transfer a man with skills and training into the Infantry. There were lots of unskilled guys that had no training that were assigned to AAF, and those guys were the ones that most expendable to the AAF if the Infantry needed bodies.

One thing to look at if you are really interested in this topic is the Order of Battle and Organizational Charts for the different Divisions and Air Forces. If you look at those you will see what specific units were attached them, and sometimes that can help explain some of these things.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

More interested in the variety of other topics going on there, just thought it's funny the same questions being raised there. I think the guy is asking if, rather than stating fact about the AAF / CIB thing. Just thought it to be quite a coincidence is all, I run across it briefly, then run it across you guys just in case it's relevant to this topic. Everything you say makes total sense and seems common sense to me, I don't question any of it.

 

[a2jacketpatches]