Serenity and Criticism

[ZuZu]

I'm posting this basically because I'm too dumb to find the Member Bio area. I feel the need to explain that I come from a place of objective criticism- neither of my threads in "Repros" right now is anything but objective- I had no idea it would devolve into personal squabbling, Glasgow kisses and massive deflection.
I was on the forum before- but I wasn't banned for criticizing repros or being snarky- I was banned for being political and because people thought I was a "N" word! No- not that "N" word- no- the one that ends with an "i'' . So much for defending the Luftwaffe or complaining about RAF area bombing...

Today in 2019 we all have many good choices in reproduction WW2 jackets. The way jackets look now is a lot because of assholes like me whining and complaining and nitpicking back when in 2006 or so. Complaining about smooth leather and strange patterning and clown collars and flooby knits etc. has led to the Good Wears, Diamond Daves, Bill Kelsos and even to the Eastman of today- incredibly different than the crap of before. As different as an Eastman of 1989 (which were beautiful by the way) was from an Avirex from 1985 so are the jackets of today (including Eastman) different from the smooth leathered, soulless, "bespoke" fare of the early 2000s. Criticism is good- and snarkiness helps make the point. Think Simon Cowell- sometimes an asshole gets to the truth quicker.

The Japanese caught on earlier- a case of separate development- but they have not evolved much past the beautifully sewn, thick leathered idealizations they still make today.

A couple of the repro makers of today are a bit slower to change to this new paradigm- strong-willed leaders make for a refusal to change. Eg:

Lost Worlds makes a beautifully sewn really excellent leather jacket. However the captain of the company won't fix 2 obvious flaws- his incorrect label and the too far apart pockets. That being said- when you buy a Lost Worlds you are getting a sublimely well put together jacket and it's a thing of its own. You're not necessarily expecting a perfect copy.

Aero of Scotland- I have 2 threads detailing 3 glaring flaws- the incorrect epaulet, the incorrect collar/windflap area and brutal sewing. easy to fix! My criticism is simply pointing out what is there- and I'd say at this point that the jackets are sub-par as repros.

 

[Smithy]

I'm all for constructive criticism and making repros better for us the punters is a good thing.

That considered, when you came on here in one of your first posts and called yourself "an expert", it wasn't exactly the smartest move. Maybe you were trying to be funny or you really did think it made you sound pretty swish and cool when in reality it was a bit like walking into a room full of mostly strangers and saying, "I'm a first class dickhead".

Once again I'm all for constructive criticism of repros if it means that the makers can improve and make better jackets. Saying that I'm not into the politics and shit flinging between makers and don't think it does any maker any great service slagging off another or chucking insults at other makers.

 

[DiamondDave]

Welcome back aboard!! Though it’s been floated that we are old friends or something, when you first started these threads I had no idea who you were. No offense. Glad to see someone making this joint entertaining again, just tired of people high-fiving over sub par repros. It’s gotten stale. No more!
DD

 

[Silver Surfer]

lw? them guys [stu] that used megamorph hides, dyed to death, and never break in?....and for what they are, a bit pricey, too boot. however, to read stu's bs rap on his site, might be worth the price of admission.

 

[dinomartino1]

Keep posting but I don't think snarkiness goes well with objective.
If you are searching for the topic I don't want to have to trawl through an overlong thread to find the relevant information because people are arguing about the way things have been said not the actual faults in question.
I did stick in my two cents worth but not about the way you said things [pointless] but about something that I perceived to be not objective.

Objective to me is
Based on surviving jackets or photos of wartime jackets this feature has not been seen.
This feature has been seen but it is not common, so a reproduction jacket made that that way is still acceptable.
One example of a jacket is not definitive proof in regards to inaccuracies.
Wartime jackets where made by the contractors with same aim as any other business to make a profit and many employees may have been paid bonuses based on the number of jackets made, like any other normal person for many their main thought was the size of the pay packet they where getting at the of the week not making perfect examples of their companies pattern which not may have not been a big concern of the company either, production volume to make more profit probably was, a jacket may had to have been pretty bad to fail quality control.
Wartime expansion to cope with demand presumably meant many new inexperienced employees and people working as fast as they could to earn more money so yes variations from the same maker where made.
Individual machinists quirks can be judged in the same light as different contractors interpretations of the A2 specs.
Nobody is going to make a copy of an original jacket that was poorly done by an inexperienced machinist or cutter or somebody with their mind not on the job but if they did it is still a historically accurate example.

If inaccuracies are easily fixed on jackets where accuracy is claimed then why not do it, not too makes no sense.
If a maker makes claims about accuracy that do not reflect reality it is only reasonable to expect people to be able to point out any issues.

Good wear say it best.
Q: Everyone says their jackets are authentic. What makes your jackets authentic?
A: No reproduction is perfect, and certainly our jackets aren't (and originals aren't perfect or all that consisten, either!).

 

[Juanito]

I'm posting this basically because I'm too dumb to find the Member Bio area. I feel the need to explain that I come from a place of objective criticism- neither of my threads in "Repros" right now is anything but objective- I had no idea it would devolve into personal squabbling, Glasgow kisses and massive deflection.
I was on the forum before- but I wasn't banned for criticizing repros or being snarky- I was banned for being political and because people thought I was a "N" word! No- not that "N" word- no- the one that ends with an "i'' . So much for defending the Luftwaffe or complaining about RAF area bombing...

Today in 2019 we all have many good choices in reproduction WW2 jackets. The way jackets look now is a lot because of assholes like me whining and complaining and nitpicking back when in 2006 or so. Complaining about smooth leather and strange patterning and clown collars and flooby knits etc. has led to the Good Wears, Diamond Daves, Bill Kelsos and even to the Eastman of today- incredibly different than the crap of before. As different as an Eastman of 1989 (which were beautiful by the way) was from an Avirex from 1985 so are the jackets of today (including Eastman) different from the smooth leathered, soulless, "bespoke" fare of the early 2000s. Criticism is good- and snarkiness helps make the point. Think Simon Cowell- sometimes an asshole gets to the truth quicker.

The Japanese caught on earlier- a case of separate development- but they have not evolved much past the beautifully sewn, thick leathered idealizations they still make today.

A couple of the repro makers of today are a bit slower to change to this new paradigm- strong-willed leaders make for a refusal to change. Eg:



View attachment 26931

Lost Worlds makes a beautifully sewn really excellent leather jacket. However the captain of the company won't fix 2 obvious flaws- his incorrect label and the too far apart pockets. That being said- when you buy a Lost Worlds you are getting a sublimely well put together jacket and it's a thing of its own. You're not necessarily expecting a perfect copy.

Aero of Scotland- I have 2 threads detailing 3 glaring flaws- the incorrect epaulet, the incorrect collar/windflap area and brutal sewing. easy to fix! My criticism is simply pointing out what is there- and I'd say at this point that the jackets are sub-par as repros.

Certainly not for accuracy's sake, but I am a proponent of the Lost Worlds A-2 for what it is. One, among other fatals flaw in design--the epaulet is a single piece of leather, not two. That said, there is no better made jacket fro a durability standpoint.

 

[Smithy]

a jacket may had to have been pretty bad to fail quality control.

What hasn't been mentioned or if so only touched upon, is that all of the very high end repros are actually more over-engineered and better made than originals.

We have several original A-2 jackets in the museum here (for the most part via 331 and 332 Sqns) and each one of them has the pockets slightly out of alignment - for the most part around 1/2 inch higher on one side than the other, and/or the flaps are either oversized or undersized for its respective pocket. Each one of them also has wonky stitching and out of alignment snaps. Something like a GW is made to a far higher and more fastidious standard than a wartime original and not unsurprisingly. Inspectors at the time didn't care if a pocket was a 1/2 inch out or if seam stitching was wonky or wavered, their main priority - as with all combat equipment and clothing - was whether the item could do the job it was intended to do and without breaking/falling apart within a reasonable working timeframe. A-2 jackets were no different. Aesthetic issues which didn't affect function were not a problem with a wartime jacket. And you see this on all wartime kit and clothing, the manufacturers were trying to get kit out to troops, airmen and sailors as efficiently quickly as possible.

 

[Brettafett]

Constructive criticism and respectful debate... By all means. Helping improve the authenticity and quality of available repros, benefits all at the end of the day.
That exactly what this forum is for... A bunch of like-minded guys and gals, interested in the same things... Getting together to talk and sharing opinions, insights and experiences. Idealistic? Perhaps.

There will always be room for improvement. Some makers are more interested in actually improving than others, yes. But its not just authenticity and quality that needs improving, also CUSTOMER SERVICE! And this waiting for 6 months or 2+ years for a jacket... understandable as it may be, is silly and for me at least, is fast getting boring and annoying. As is paying $1000s for a jacket.

I think the new game in town is making an authentic as possible repro for the least amount of money (yes... this harkens back to the old AVI threads)... Platon's Dubow is showing us it CAN be done.
An original maker horsehide A-2, that is very well detailed, great materials and components, copied off an original that was taken a apart... for a very reasonable sum compared to some other top-tier makers.

 

[ausreenactor]

So much serenity these days...

 

[Micawber]

So much serenity these days...

Good job too.

 

[Brettafett]

Must be a holiday on or something

 

[Smithy]

Must be a holiday on or something

Holidaying in Coventry ;-)

 

[adfrost]

I think the new game in town is making an authentic as possible repro for the least amount of money (yes... this harkens back to the old AVI threads)... Platon's Dubow is showing us it CAN be done.
An original maker horsehide A-2, that is very well detailed, great materials and components, copied off an original that was taken a apart... for a very reasonable sum compared to some other top-tier makers.

This is exactly why I’m starting to inquire on a Five Star G-1. Waiting 2 years for something like a GW that might not even fit by the time I get it isn’t particularly appealing to me, no matter how artisinally-produced & accurate it is.

 

[Griffon_301]

first of all, happy new year to you guys here
it has been an interesting year for me here, I have learned a lot new stuff about jackets and have had some interesting discussions and conversations with some of you; and I was able to get some beautiful jackets from connections made here as well;
thats, what this forum is all about for me;

I am a member to several forums, relating to my hobbies and while some are just places to have fun and talk to like minded people, others are in touch with the producers of the things, the forums are about and discussions there have led to improvements to these products (diecast aircraft models and flight sims mostly..)
so I am used to good exchanges of opinion and constructive criticism but I have also learned that for the most part nowadays, people can only agree to disagree;
case in point was a really nasty and in the end unnecessary discussion about the correctness of a flightmodel in a prominent flight sim some years ago;
E-M diagrams were thrown around, pilot quotes recited, flight test reports abused and everything ended in turmoil; and one of the points mentioned back then also relates to a major point about mass produced jackets in wartime too;

two planes back then never were of the same build quality; some were hangar queens right after being built, some became hangar queens after major (or some minor) parts had to be exchanged, and some just were not good as others for no obvious reasons; and of course some were built so quickly that deficiencies were unavoidable; btw the same is true for the mass built ships of WW2...
and I am sure, it was the same with jackets...

as I am living in Austria, I do not have much opportunity to buy original military gear from outside the EU, crapbay mostly blocks such auctions here in Austria, no matter if you want to buy gloves, or more serious pieces of hardware;
so my collection comprises high tier repros for the time being and I am happy with all of them because I bought them after a thinking process; I am mostly owning ELC and BR stuff and I have talked to Rob and Gary various times while they still were present at Duxford and I value their customer care and support, even if you only buy their calendar or a BR catalogue...besides they are nice guys too, Rob really being the most helpful and caring staff I have ever encountered...

Personally I do not care that much if pockets are some millimeters off or a collar is not 100% correct or the colour is a little off; I have bought my jackets because I wanted them and most of them I had the opportunity to try on before buying them; thanks to this, I know my measurements and can buy comfortably without trying if I can get my eyes on the measurements of a given jackets; I have done that with my L-2s...
so if anyone says that RW never had a contract for a B-6, then I say "yes, true", but the ELC RW B-6 is a seriously beautiful jacket and one I am proud to own...
the label on my ELC G&F M-422a may not be 100% correct, but no problem, the jacket is just great and just yesterday, I was asked in a designer shop in Vienna where I got it from and if I would like to sell it...

the most important thing to me is that we keep the memory of the guys and gals who wore these jackets and stuff alive! we think about them and the sacrifices they have made and wearing those jackets reminds me that it is not a given that we live in the world we do right now!

we owe a lot to the people who wore those jackets in their prime, no matter if it was a perfect fit, a blousy fit or a lousy fit....

 

[s4rmark]

Excellent write up and +1 for Rob at Eastman. we have met him a few times at various shows and can honestly say he’s so helpful and a great guy.

 

[tjoenn]

first of all, happy new year to you guys here
it has been an interesting year for me here, I have learned a lot new stuff about jackets and have had some interesting discussions and conversations with some of you; and I was able to get some beautiful jackets from connections made here as well;
thats, what this forum is all about for me;

I am a member to several forums, relating to my hobbies and while some are just places to have fun and talk to like minded people, others are in touch with the producers of the things, the forums are about and discussions there have led to improvements to these products (diecast aircraft models and flight sims mostly..)
so I am used to good exchanges of opinion and constructive criticism but I have also learned that for the most part nowadays, people can only agree to disagree;
case in point was a really nasty and in the end unnecessary discussion about the correctness of a flightmodel in a prominent flight sim some years ago;
E-M diagrams were thrown around, pilot quotes recited, flight test reports abused and everything ended in turmoil; and one of the points mentioned back then also relates to a major point about mass produced jackets in wartime too;

two planes back then never were of the same build quality; some were hangar queens right after being built, some became hangar queens after major (or some minor) parts had to be exchanged, and some just were not good as others for no obvious reasons; and of course some were built so quickly that deficiencies were unavoidable; btw the same is true for the mass built ships of WW2...
and I am sure, it was the same with jackets...

as I am living in Austria, I do not have much opportunity to buy original military gear from outside the EU, crapbay mostly blocks such auctions here in Austria, no matter if you want to buy gloves, or more serious pieces of hardware;
so my collection comprises high tier repros for the time being and I am happy with all of them because I bought them after a thinking process; I am mostly owning ELC and BR stuff and I have talked to Rob and Gary various times while they still were present at Duxford and I value their customer care and support, even if you only buy their calendar or a BR catalogue...besides they are nice guys too, Rob really being the most helpful and caring staff I have ever encountered...

Personally I do not care that much if pockets are some millimeters off or a collar is not 100% correct or the colour is a little off; I have bought my jackets because I wanted them and most of them I had the opportunity to try on before buying them; thanks to this, I know my measurements and can buy comfortably without trying if I can get my eyes on the measurements of a given jackets; I have done that with my L-2s...
so if anyone says that RW never had a contract for a B-6, then I say "yes, true", but the ELC RW B-6 is a seriously beautiful jacket and one I am proud to own...
the label on my ELC G&F M-422a may not be 100% correct, but no problem, the jacket is just great and just yesterday, I was asked in a designer shop in Vienna where I got it from and if I would like to sell it...

the most important thing to me is that we keep the memory of the guys and gals who wore these jackets and stuff alive! we think about them and the sacrifices they have made and wearing those jackets reminds me that it is not a given that we live in the world we do right now!

we owe a lot to the people who wore those jackets in their prime, no matter if it was a perfect fit, a blousy fit or a lousy fit....

Couldn't agree more wrt your thoughts about our jackets!! Also met Rob twice when visiting Eastman, most friendly and helpful guy there is!!