Obama Wearing A2 . . .

[Marrk]

. . . at Bagram Airfield today.



So, pardon my dumbness, but who has the contract for current issue mil spec A2s and what is your opinion of 'em? Esp., is it possible to get one with sleeves that weren't made for a midget*?



Thanks.



* (apologies to all you midgets out there :mrgreen: )

 

[Tim P]

I think a number of contractors supply the USAF. They bear little more than a superficial resemblance to ww2 items and discussions here suggest they are off flight status.
they are inexpensive and available in a big range of sizes on the surplus market and on ebay. I dont have one myself.

 

[HackerF15E]

The latest A-2s (in the last 5-10 years) are Avirex/Cockpit USA. The one I was issued in 2000 was Avirex, and obviously they've changed names since then -- within the last couple months I've seen a jacket waiting to be issued that is labeled Cockpit USA. Previously, they were made by Cooper and Saddlery.

It's NOT true that they "bear little more than superficial resemblance". They're still the same basic core design, but DO have a couple design "additions" over the WWII design (not really changes, per se), all of which were modifications that USAF pilots were making to their jackets after they'd been issued (at places like Pop's Leather over in Turkey). I don't know precisely when the design changes were implemented into issue jackets, but it was sometime in the late 90s. More on that later... The Cooper and Saddlery jackets (which are still in the supply system and occasionally still get issued) are of the late 80s "revived" USAF A-2 style, where the neck opening has been made larger, but are otherwise true-ish to the WWII design.

Contrary to popular belief, it CAN and IS worn flying. It's certainly more popular in the tanker/transport/cargo pilot community than it is in the fighter community, but it does occasionally happen. There's a whole cultural issue with the fighter community as to why it is scorned (some fighter guys don't ever wear it at all because of the dislike), but that's another issue that I can detail if anyone really cares. There was a time that the jacket could not be worn flying, but that's not currently true and hasn't been true for several years.

Here's what the jacket looks like currently; mine is a decade old, has been more or less "deliberately" mistreated, and with the exception of the tag still looks absolutely fabulous. I don't know why the Avirex/Cockpit jackets get such a bum rap among A-2 purists as to their quality -- I just don't know how much better a jacket has to be satisfactory. I've worn it in all weather, let it sit wrinkled up in the back of my car during the hot months, had fluids and greases spilled/rubbed on it accidentally, it's been scraped, dragged, thrown, and all other manner of mistreatment all in the line of duty. All of that, and it has held up magnificently and, with an occasional bit of Lexol, still ends up looking good. I do have some dislikes about it, mostly how it fits in the torso area (due to the design modifications I'll detail here in a second), but there's also a lot to love about it. My issue jacket is a 46, which fits me perfectly across the shoulders and chest, but with the design mods in the torso, ends up being HUGE around the bottom. I could easily a wear a 46 in the original style that fits slimmer, or perhaps even a 44 in the "new" style...but this is the one they gave me, and I can't go back and trade it for a new one (and wouldn't want to if I could!).

Since I'm a fighter guy, I've never worn it in flight...but here's me wearing it with another type of raptor...

Here's the lowdown on the design changes; they're mostly designed to combat the slim fit and restrictions on arm movement of the original A-2 design. Personally, I like some of the changes and don't like others. These are quick iPhone snapshots -- if someone cares I can get some better photos.

- G-1 like underarm gussets (in some versions of the Avirex jacket there's also an additional piece of leather on the back of the sleeve). I don't know the reason for the sleeve patch, but the gussets is the single best improvement to the A-2 seen to date!

- Extra pieces inserted into the torso area under the arms (for us fat Americans!):

- Inside Pocket and pen pocket added to liner:

- Neck hook and eye deleted:

- Side entry pockets "tastefully" added:

 

[Tim P]

My comment about the superficial resemblance is borne out by all the additions to and omissions from the ww2 design that you illustrate.
In my opinion they are improvements that make the jacket more useable and comfortable by far
but the leather looks different, the knits are different and the pocket shape is different. They cannot be confused with ww2 examples.
Regarding use in flight, I was messing with USAF aircrews in 2003 and they were well in evidence then so I was surprised to read here that they had been relegated. I merely repeated what was said here, that they were considered to be earmarked for obsolesence due to health and safety concerns. Clearly and happily I stand corrected.

 

[Atticus]

HackerF15E, welcome to VLJ and thank you for your post.

I have always liked the new A-2s and used to write about them on VLJ from time to time. Right now, I have four...two Saddlerys, two Avirex and a Branded Leather/Ordhard. I agree with you...there is not such a huge difference between the new and old A-2...especialy when one compares the old A-2 to the first editions of the new jacket. As you well know, it wasn't until after the 1998 Avirex contract that the design of the new A-2 included side-enty pockets, underarm gussets and interior pockets.

As to quality, the new A-2s are difficult to beat. I think we often forget that the new A-2 is no longer new. In fact, the original Saddlerys are now twenty-two years old. After much wear, mine are still doing fine. I'm happy to hear you say that Saddlerys can stll be found in military supply and are stil going strong. Interesting side note that the military life of the WWII A-2 was less than a decade...less than half the time that the current jacket has served.

Years ago, there was much discussion about this subject on older versions of this board. I think many here don't care for the new A-2 because it is not exactly like the WWII A-2. You have to understand, ours is an odd group of folks. We'll pay huge money for some mail order, reproduction jacket if we think it exactly replicates the look of some other historical jacket. When our new repro arrives in the mail, we'll fret endlessly over its leather weight, pocket shape, zipper brand, stitch count or whatever. Then, if we don't think our jacket is exactly "authentic" (and we never do), we'll dump it on ebay and begin the search for another, better, more authentic, "authentic reproduction" jacket.

But we don't care so much for the new A-2s that have flown in real military aircraft on the backs of real aircrew...in real wars.

Just my little opinion :twisted: .


AF

 

[arclight]

Well put Atticus! The A-2 looks good on you HackerF15E...........and welcome to VLJ.

arclight

 

[zoomer]

And thanks for the great analysis of the A-2 spec.
If you want to tell us about current day fighter pilot culture, we'd love to hear about it!

 

[Marrk]

Great information, gentlemen!

In the early 1990s, I bought several goatskin Avirex A-2s from the Avirex store in Beverly Hills. I may be dreaming a strange dream here, but it is my memory that those earliest purchases were vintage mil spec in size, as well as in many other aspects. They were marvelous jackets, with great leather quality and color, for approx. $275.00 USD. My only frustration had to do with inadequate sleeve length, and so, sad to say, I wound up giving them away in the hope of finding a perfect fit.

In the late '90s, I had several current mil spec A-2s. Cooper was one, I think. U.S. SomethingorOther was another. These were generally very poor quality leather, poor attempts at jacket sizing and really awful sewer water grey in color. It was like wearing cardboard. I don't miss those jackets at all.

The Cable Raincoat goatskin A-2 I have now is alleged to be "true to the original contract," etc., but, compared to those early Avirex jackets, it gives me no pleasure. I don't wear it. As soon as I figure out what ebay is, it will have to find a new home.

 

[HackerF15E]

I think many here don't care for the new A-2 because it is not exactly like the WWII A-2. You have to understand, ours is an odd group of folks. We'll pay huge money for some mail order, reproduction jacket if we think it exactly replicates the look of some other historical jacket. When our new repro arrives in the mail, we'll fret endlessly over its leather weight, pocket shape, zipper brand, stitch count or whatever. Then, if we don't think our jacket is exactly "authentic" (and we never do), we'll dump it on ebay and begin the search for another, better, more authentic, "authentic reproduction" jacket.

But we don't care so much for the new A-2s that have flown in real military aircraft on the backs of real aircrew...in real wars.

Great perspective, thanks...and one that I've seen hints of over the years that I've been interested in A-2s and had an issue jacket of my own.

I've never understood the rationale behind that line of thought from 'purists' scoffing the current issue jackets. I understand there's a historical romance with the WWII era, and that's the attraction behind period jackets, but that doesn't negate the fact that (as you mention) the current jackets ARE REAL ISSUE ITEMS and have been serving longer in combat operations than the 'originals' ever did. I love A-2s and G-1s, but I'm clearly not the same level of enthusiast as many of you VLJ'ers, so perhaps I just don't get it because of that.

Which do I personally prefer? I'm a WWII aviation enthusiast too, so for casual wear I'd choose an authentic 1940s jacket over my current issue one (actually, I'd choose a G-1 over an A-2, but that's a different argument). Heck, I've even considered dropping the $1000 on one of those replica Eastmans or something of the like, having them sew the current USAF-issue velcro patches, and using that for my uniform wear, too. I can only imagine the purists crying out at my 'ruining' of a great replica jacket with those velcro patches!

 

[HackerF15E]

In the late '90s, I had several current mil spec A-2s. Cooper was one, I think. U.S. SomethingorOther was another. These were generally very poor quality leather, poor attempts at jacket sizing and really awful sewer water grey in color. It was like wearing cardboard. I don't miss those jackets at all.

I owned one of the Cooper A-2s that they sold commercially right after the USAF drew up the contract in the late 1980s. Other than the fact that the collar was too large (and I didn't really like the cotton liner), it was a well built jacket and had nice leather.

Quality must have taken a nosedive...I wonder if that's why Avirex took over the contract in the late 90s?

 

[Marrk]

Hacker,

There are many here who know more than me. But, that being said, it is my understanding that, after some retail purchaser hue-and-cry about fit, Avirex abandoned vintage mil spec sizing to accommodate fat, saggy, old yuppies who wanted to wear their Bill Cosby sweaters (remember those? from the '80s?) underneath, and match the jacket with "relaxed fit" jeans, whatever they are. And so, an opportunity was forsaken.

The "nosedive of quality" to which you refer is a weird thing and happens across the board, it seems. Military contractor bait-and-switch. I mean, we could probably talk about M-65 Army field jackets until someone (and by "someone," I mean "me") bursts into tears.

Mark



P.S. By the bye, I love Bill Cosby, but give me the Cosby of the '60s, or even the '70s, not the '80s. For example, in _I Spy_, this guy personally invented "cool" for American tv. Indeed, I think Robert Culp, his co-star, was a little flummoxed to be in the position of trying to keep up. But that, as they say, is another story.

 

[HackerF15E]

If you want to tell us about current day fighter pilot culture, we'd love to hear about it!

Well, here's how it relates to the A-2 and why it's not well liked or widely worn among USAF fighter pilots. BTW, I can't say that I agree with any of these reasons (or even find them to be valid reasons not to like/wear the A-2), and please don't try to apply your own logic to try and understand it because you probably won't be able to. There are lots of things that the USAF fighter community does that I simply don't understand, and this is one 'tradition' that is beyond me!

First and foremost, there's the fact that the A-2 (by the late 1980s common vernacular) is called a 'bomber jacket'. Fighter pilots wouldn't be caught dead in a 'bomber jacket'! (Editorial comment: Every time I hear this argument out of a fellow fighter pilot, I tell them they need to go tell that to our Patron Saint, Robin Olds, who quite obviously can't be a real fighter pilot because of this 'bomber jacket' nonsense, right?)

Second, and probably most importantly, fighter pilots in the late 1980s felt that the motivation for bringing back the A-2 was insulting. If you read the Air Force Magazine article about the return of the A-2, it says,

As a result, the revival of the A-2 jacket took on a special status as a visible symbol of the modern Air Force pilot. According to one internal paper, the rationale given as the idea climbed upward in command channels was that combat-ready aircrews were “not adequately recognized and that reinstatement of the distinctive aviators’ jacket would be a significant help.”

So, many were insulted by this idea that a way to recognize their hard work was by giving them a $300 leather jacket, instead of something more substantial. Many decided they were not going to wear it in protest (this is the late 80s and early 90s). The 'fashion trend' has been passed along through generations of fighter pilots, and even though practically nobody who is currently on active duty was even around when this 'insult' happened, many still recognize it.

Third, the 'final insult', is that even though the A-2 was intended only for pilots and other cockpit crew, a decade ago the USAF made the jacket authorized to be issued to all manner of USAF personnel, including Air Battle Managers, Space and Missile Officers (who don't even fly!), and even some Intelligence officers. So, once any exclusivity was lost, that put off many who weren't all ready against it based on the previous two reasons. Here's a post from a thread from a forum that mostly consists of USAF aircrew talking about the jackets and some of the reasons the current A-2 is disliked:

http://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/in ... ntry123061

As for me, I don't give a crap about any of those reasons. When I wear my issued A-2, I feel a connection with the pilots who were flying into combat in Mustangs and Flying Fortresses. I like it, and I couldn't give two squats about who else is authorized to wear it or what it symbolized to some of the guys 20 years ago when it was brought back. I don't feel like any less of a fighter pilot for wearing my 'bomber jacket'...I guess me and Robin will just have to deal what that stigma!

 

[Marrk]

Fascinating, Hacker! Thanks for those insights.

 

[deand]

This thread is simply the kind I'm for which I'm thankful I was accepted as a VLJ member. Great insights! And welcome to the forum, Hack!





dean

 

[Atticus]

Fascinating, Hacker! Thanks for those insights.

Indeed. Thank you, Sir.

By the way...if you don't mind, I'm not going to truncate your username. There's already a Hacher on board here. He doesn't post as much as he once did since he fucked up and accidentally got a real job...but he's one of our originals. I won't go into the long, sordid story of how he got his name, but in my mind, he'll always be the only Hacker here.

AF

 

[HackerF15E]

This thread is simply the kind I'm for which I'm thankful I was accepted as a VLJ member. Great insights! And welcome to the forum, Hack!

Thanks for the welcome, everyone! Happy to be here. This is a great resource.

Are there any mods who want to change the title of this thread, since it has nothing to do with the POTUS wearing an A-2 anymore?

 

[HackerF15E]

By the way...if you don't mind, I'm not going to truncate your username. There's already a Hacher on board here. He doesn't post as much as he once did since he f*cked up and accidentally got a real job...but he's one of our originals. I won't go into the long, sordid story of how he got his name, but in my mind, he'll always be the only Hacker here.

Suit yourself, but that's my name, too. Didn't earn it here on this site, of course, but earned none the less.

Ignore the watch, here's my nametag from my former squadron over in England.

 

[bfrench]

This thread is simply the kind I'm for which I'm thankful I was accepted as a VLJ member. Great insights! And welcome to the forum, Hack!

Thanks for the welcome, everyone! Happy to be here. This is a great resource.

Are there any mods who want to change the title of this thread, since it has nothing to do with the POTUS wearing an A-2 anymore?

Hi, Hacker F15,

Welcome to the forum.

As for changing the thread title - well, we've hardly ever stay on topic - seems the older we get the more we ramble.

The A-2 you wear is a flight jacket not a bomber jacket - and there's only one way it becomes a flight jacket.

Cheers,
Bill French

 

[HackerF15E]

and there's only one way it becomes a flight jacket.

Awww, man! I guess I've gotta get some flight time on it then, eh? Right now, it has zero hours on it with me as the pilot. I'd hate to leave the military and have to pass along to my kids a "flight jacket" with no flying time...talk about embarrassing.

To be honest, I don't like to fly with a jacket on at all. A fighter cockpit is small enough as is, and when you're having to turn around to "check six" and whatnot, the less layers of clothing the better.

When it's cold, I usually fly with Nomex thermal underwear under my flight suit and leave the jacket hanging in my locker. When it gets REALLY cold, I add the CWU-36/P (the "summer" Aramid flight jacket) over the top. The A-2 is so bulky...I just wonder if I'd really like to fly in it or if the idea of it is better than the reality.

 

[bfrench]

Awww, man! I guess I've gotta get some flight time on it then, eh? Right now, it has zero hours on it with me as the pilot. I'd hate to leave the military and have to pass along to my kids a "flight jacket" with no flying time...talk about embarrassing.

To be honest, I don't like to fly with a jacket on at all. A fighter cockpit is small enough as is, and when you're having to turn around to "check six" and whatnot, the less layers of clothing the better.

When it's cold, I usually fly with Nomex thermal underwear under my flight suit and leave the jacket hanging in my locker. When it gets REALLY cold, I add the CWU-36/P (the "summer" Aramid flight jacket) over the top. The A-2 is so bulky...I just wonder if I'd really like to fly in it or if the idea of it is better than the reality.[/quote]

I think that was part of the charisma with the originals - they were mostly used as flight gear until everybody wised up and realized that fire retardant material made better flight clothing plus being not so good in cold weather.

There's lots of pics of the WWII types wearing the newer B-10 jackets in favor of the A-2.

But it sure would be neat to have pics of someone wearing an A-2 in flight especially in a modern day fighter.

Cheers,
Bill French