Need RAF raid research

[bfrench]

Hi, Folks,

I had and uncle - Richard Lancelot BELL RAFVR - killed on a raid during the night of 21 October, 1944.

I've been able to find the info below and have come to a blank - still a lot of unanswered questions and my Mom and Dad plus grandparents are long gone - they seem to have limited info also as not much was ever mentioned.

I'm still surprised that they would be buried in Belgrade when the raid was suppesed to be in western Hungary about 250 miles away.

It would be nice to be able to find out the raid details and why they are buried in Belgrade, Serbia and how it happened.

I know it's posted in general jacket discussion but I wanted to be sure it whad the best exposure - if there's any objections I'll move it to Life Beyond the Internet.

20/21-10-1944
No.104 Sqn.
Wellington ???

F.T.R. from raid on Szombathely Airfield, Hungary.

1575620 Sgt (Pilot) George Douglas ROWDEN RAFVR +
1515856 Sgt (Air Bomber) William Henry STEPHENSON RAFVR +
1354684 Sgt (Nav.) Richard Lancelot BELL RAFVR +
1814244 Sgt (W.Op/Air Gnr.) John Anthony ASQUITH RAFVR +
1211428 Sgt (Air Gnr.) Walter Desmond SPENCER RAFVR +

All buried Belgrade War Cemetery, Coll grave 7.E. 1-5.

 

[unclegrumpy]

You should try your post on one of the RAF Forums. Below is a link to one of them...maybe one of the guys here knows which forum would be the best for this type of research.

Good Luck!

RAF Forum:

http://rafforum.activeboard.com/forum.s ... umID=46291

 

[Andrew]

Here's some more you might try Bill;

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=4

http://www.network54.com/Forum/180748/

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/BARC/index.html

 

[unclegrumpy]

One tip that is sometimes successful, is to try researching the other men that were killed from the same plane and squadron on this date/mission. Sometimes I have been lucky to have found family members of the crew that have a lot of information on what happened.

As far as being buried 250 miles from the target, that is not uncommon because the plane could have gone down either going to or on it's way back from the target. Most of the time it is on the way back.

Sometimes in the Missing Air Crew Reports that the AAF kept, there are the German reports....usually just a file card or two....that summarizes the details and location of the crash, and exactly where the crew members were buried. These are often found in 15th AAF MACRs. Given that the 15th flew over a lot of the same territory, I have to believe that the RAF got this information after the war as well, and there is a card somewhere for your uncle.

It will be really interesting to hear what you learn, as I am sure one day I will want to research someone in the RAF.

 

[unclegrumpy]

This looks like the Forum for you!

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showth ... hely/page2

I just searched the pilot's name, and it looks like these folks have been down the exact same trail before....and in searching the thread, it looks like you just were too!

Please let us know what you come with....it is great news learn you found the right place to learn about, and give your Uncle's memory the historical context it so richly deserves.

 

[bfrench]

Thanks, UG,

Yes, I've been to that RAF site and have the same conclusions - but I did come across a 60 page site for 37 Squadron which had a plane go down on the same raid same date and buried in the same cemetery.

It's still a puzzle as to why they're buried in Belgrade which is about 250 miles southeast of the target and the return trip home would have been due south from the target - it's hard to fathom the whole squadron going that far of course and then most of the squadron making it home.

Curiouser and curiouser.

Cheers,

 

[unclegrumpy]

It's still a puzzle as to why they're buried in Belgrade which is about 250 miles southeast of the target and the return trip home would have been due south from the target - it's hard to fathom the whole squadron going that far of course and then most of the squadron making it home.

With the 15th AAF missions I have researched, the crew that have been killed have generally been buried in local Cemeteries close to the crash site. Maybe the mission reports will explain it, but it was not uncommon for AAF planes to get far off course if they got separated from their Squadrons or Groups. Given that the RAF mostly flew at night, I bet that happened a lot more often.

I think it is interesting that another Squadron had a crew buried in the same place. I wonder how many other aircrew are buried there? It seems unlikely that the bodies would have been moved that far during the war, and if they were being moved after, then it would seem more likely they would have brought them home....which is what happened to most of the AAF guys....though some were moved to American Cemeteries overseas....like in Italy for example.

The Americans kept files regarding the disposition of the remains of each serviceman....I wonder if there is something similar you could write for?


PS: After I wrote the above, I found a quote on the rafcommands Forum that might explain a little of the mystery:

".....there are 483 casualties in the Belgrade war graves plot! Not sure how many are RAF but it must be a good proportion as they were brought in from burial sites all over Yugoslavia."

And then this:

http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cem ... 20Cemetery

So that means your Uncle was most likely moved to Belgrade, but now the question is, from where?

Yes, curiouser and curiouser!

 

[unclegrumpy]

Check this link out...in it is a lot of good bits about someone else researching the 104 Squadron....it looks like a good spot to do another post as well:

http://www.canadaatwar.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=8733

In looking at other sites researching specific RAF missions/sorties, it looks like you need to get a hold of the October 20/21 1944:

RAF Form 441 "Operational Sortie Report"

RAF Form 541, "A Daily Summary of Sorties"

From what I can see, these reports are not available on line....you have to hire a National Archives researcher:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/irli ... &x=40&y=16

If you go that route, I would suggest expanding your request to beyond your Uncle's last mission. Ask for a what they can find on all of his missions. And if the Squadron's sortie reports are on microfilm, consider buying those microfilms for all of the months he flew.

However, I think I would try another post on the Forum above first....someone out there might already have all of the 104 Squadron archival information sitting on their computer.