Modern USAF A-2's

[dilbert]

Questions concerning the current-issue Air Force A-2's:

1. One description I've come across says that the leather of the jacket is treated with a special fire retardant chemical. Is this true, and, if so, any idea what the chemical is?

2. The same source says that the jacket "is authorized for wear by aircrew members and by space operations personnel. Only personnel who have completed their mission qualifications, as opposed to basic aviation qualifications, are permitted to wear it." I'm an old Navy guy. Can someone explain the difference between mission qualification and basic aviation quals? We were issued G-1's as we started flight training in the Navy, so apparently Air Force pilots/crews have to wait for further qualifications? I assume this does not mean graduation from flight training?

Many thanks for the help!

 

[rich]

This is just a point of coincidence dilbert, but on UK TV recently there was a documentary featuring a well know British
TV presenter who took a flight to the 'edge of space' in a U2. Lucky chap!
His pilot, whose name I cannot remember, wore an A2 all the time you saw him on the ground but of course when they were up in the U2 at 70,000 feet they both wore the astronaut space suits.

It was a really interesting program, hopefully this link will work. Sorry to sideline your thread..........

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00lc5ph

 

[Dr H]

Hi Dilbert
It's difficult to say precisely what the chemical would be without some additional information/tradename, but these days a typical flame retardant spray for leather might be composed of a phosphonate derivative of a triazine - an organic ring compound containing nitrogen, oxygen and carbon atoms in the ring and phosphorus and oxygen atoms in the 'side arms' hanging off the ring. In essence carbon atoms provide good fuel to sustain a fire and by systematically replacing these with heteroatoms (nitrogen and phosphorus are particularly popular), you reduce the fuel source and make the additive less flammable.
By putting a flame retardant additive over the leather you could be introducing a layer that reduces the opportunity/likelihood of the leather igniting by introducing a sacrificial layer that might ablate to produce a char - preventing further exchange between the leather (the fuel) and the flame/oxygen in the atmosphere.
I can recommend a review on the subject if you're interested :roll: ...S Y Lu and I Hamerton. Recent Developments in the Chemistry of Flame Retardant Composite Matrices. Progress in Polymer Science (2002) 27 (8) 1661-1712. :ugeek:
Cheers
Ian

 

[Anonymous]

Is this true, and, if so, any idea what the chemical is?

As far as I know that chemical is called NOMEX.
You can read about it here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomex

 

[Dr H]

Hi Platon
No, there's some misunderstanding here - Nomex is a high performance polyaramid - a modern nylon (it forms fibres and could form the basis of the woven lining i.e. an integral flame retardant portion of the garment, but not as a treatment for the jacket/leather, which was implied by Dilbert's original post). If it's the leather that is flame retarded during processing then this is somewhat different, along the lines that I have suggested.
Cheers
Ian

 

[capt71]

Deleted

 

[deeb7]

Who or what was the source you quoted?

The quote is from Wikipedia .....

The modern Air Force A-2
Years of effort by U.S. Air Force personnel to get the A-2 jacket reissued finally succeeded when the Air Force began issuing them again in 1988. The fact the Navy had never stopped issuing its G-1 leather flying jacket meant that an entire generation of Air Force pilots and crew had missed out on an opportunity not lost to their Navy comrades. The present day issue A-2 jacket now holds a place among current Air Force pilots and crews as its ancestor did half a century ago.

The modern Air Force A-2 is authorized for wear by aircrew members and by space operations personnel. Only personnel who have completed their mission qualifications, as opposed to basic aviation qualifications, are permitted to wear it. This requirement makes the jacket highly prized even among Air Force aviators. The latest design differs from the original design in several ways: it is looser-fitting, made only from goatskin, and produced in only a medium seal brown color (though many older, fitted jackets are still in use).

Unlike World War II era pilots, modern Air Force pilots are not permitted to paint their A-2 jackets or disfigure them in any way. The official explanation for this is that the paint is flammable and could pose a fire hazard. The goatskin used in today's A-2 is treated with a special fire retardant chemical. Finally, the crewmember's name tag mounted on the left breast, and Major Command, HQ USAF, or Combatant Command shield on the right, are attached with Velcro, not sewn directly onto the jacket as they were during WWII.

In 1996 Cooper Sportswear was awarded a contract from the Defense Supply Center, Philadelphia (DSCP), to redesign the A-2 jacket to be more functional and to improve the fit. Side entry pockets were added to the patch pockets and inside wallet pockets were added. The fit was enlarged via extra pieces under the arms and on the sides. The neck clasp was also eliminated. These modifications were previously carried out by the member themselves at popular places around the world like Pop's Leather in Turkey, or in the numerous shops in Korea. Now that these modifications are part of the official issue, only "Blood Chits" and other internal linings are added by the aircrew themselves.

 

[capt71]

Looks like Wiki was a little inaccurate about when an individual is actually authorized to wear the A-2. Since an officer (USAF) is classed as "rated" when he/she has earned and has been officially awarded pilot's wings, the member is then authorized to wear the jacket.

There was a discussion earlier about proper positioning of rank insignia on A-2 epaulets. Further on in the same regs I posted it says that rank is to be shown on the name tag only on the leather A-2 jacket. So that's why you don't see any rank insignia on the epaulets of any USAF A-2s now. Back in WW2 it was a different story of course.

Bill

 

[Jaydee]

I have read this wiki before, and was surprised by the "chem treatment" part. Could it be that the A-2 is being confused with CWU jackets by Wiki?

-JD

 

[rikitiki]

Does anyone know if authorized personnel are allowed to procure their own A-2, for instance buy and wear a Good Wear in horsehide, rather than the issued jacket? Just curious.

 

[capt71]

Deleted

 

[rich]

I really can't be certain of the colour, here's a few more grabs .........

According to the program, you can buy one of the pressure suits for a cool $250,000.

 

[capt71]

Deleted

 

[capt71]

Deleted

 

[watchmanjimg]

From Rich's photos, although it's difficult to tell for sure, my impression is that the leather is not completely black. It could be a very, very deep reddish-brown or russet. It looks like the officer standing next to him is wearing a "nylon" flight jacket.

Only $250,000 for the suit? Do they throw in a U-2 with the purchase?
I'll take 2 of 'em---what the hell, make it 3!!!! :lol:

Bill

To me that A-2 looks to be the typical seal brown color of the more recent versions. The other officer is wearing a Nomex jacket, apparently the lightweight CWU-36 as evidenced by the lack of a visible wind flap.

 

[FtrPlt]

The original 1988-contract Saddlery jackets are the same medium brown color as the orange-tag commercial Cooper A-2s.

There might be some credence to the flame-retardent finish on the USAF issues. The exterior finish of the issue Saddlery jackets is substantially different than the commercial Coopers -- even on the very early Coopers which share the same heavy duty knits and chrome Ideal zips of the military version. The Saddlery finish is very heavy and very glossy.

As for the color, the jackets do appear to have gotten darker shades of brown as time has gone on. My 1988 jacket is best described as Hershey Bar brown whereas the later jackets tended towards a dark seal color. Side by side, the old jackets are similar to a WW2 russet brown jacket compared to a later dark seal jacket -- i.e. the older jackets are very easy to pick out.

 

[rb3586]

The 1995 - 9 page A-2 spec, refers to "garment grade goatskin" to be used in production. It is described as a commerical specification, for an A-2 jacket.

I found no mention made to any flame retardent coatings. The garment grade leather is to be: Brown, USAF shade 1621. The finished hide thickness, is proscribed to be from 0.7 to 0.9 mm. The leather will be uniform in grade, texture and shade.

The spec does allow for a rayon lining, a rayon poly-lining, cotton lining, or cotton-poly lining material. Cuffs are 100% cotton or cotton-poly blend. Acrylic or Polyester can be substituted for the cuffs and bottom.

A commerical label is allowed, with a attached spec label for contractor,contract, size and the NSN. Two labels are allowed, but attached to each other.

I haven't found a newer revision, for the adding of side entry pockets, inside storage pockets, or side inserts as in the current issue jacket. There may be a MOI for that somewhere.

 

[capt71]

Deleted

 

[Atticus]

The original 1988-contract Saddlery jackets are the same medium brown color as the orange-tag commercial Cooper A-2s...
...as for the color, the jackets do appear to have gotten darker shades of brown as time has gone on. My 1988 jacket is best described as Hershey Bar brown whereas the later jackets tended towards a dark seal color. Side by side, the old jackets are similar to a WW2 russet brown jacket compared to a later dark seal jacket -- i.e. the older jackets are very easy to pick out.

Modern, issued A-2s vary greatly in color depending on maker and contract. The 1988 Saddlery jackets are very russet; the 1996 Saddlerys are seal. The 1998 Avirex jackets are almost black. Orchard (Branded Leather) A-2s are seal.

First photo, clockwise from the left: 1988 Saddlery, 1992 Orchard, 1998 Avirex.

Second photo: Sadlery compared to civilian Cooper.

AF

 

[Jason]

Just for comparison... the civil version of Cooper's A-2 versus the MilSpec 1988 Saddlery A-2:

Note how the epaulettes taper on this Saddlery, and are perfectly straight on the Cooper...

Colour difference:

Hardare differences - the Saddlery has an Ideal zipper and wider throat clasp:

And knit differences too:

It wouldn't suprise me if the finish applied to MilSpec Saddlerys was somewhat flame retardant... comparing my Cooper to the Saddlery, the feel is different, and it smells significantly different too... this could just be the result of two entirely different finishes because of changes on the manufacturing line over time, or it could be the result of adding a different flame retarding lacquer finish.