Further proof that there are very few rules when it comes to zippers...

[mulceber]

One of my critiques, all of them minor, of the Eastman A-2 guide is its treatment of zippers in the contract data. In fairness to Gary, he just listed the zipper types that he had seen on each contract, but it does tend to give newbies an unwarranted sense of confidence ("this type of zipper only appeared on this contract, therefore..."). The reality is, by 1942, if not earlier, contractors were receiving all kinds of zippers to put on these jackets, and since I started looking at photos of originals, I've seen dozens of zippers that don't show up in Gary's contract data. Here's a new one to me though. This jacket was just posted on the book of faces: BEAUTIFUL Rough Wear 27752, classic collar, classic pockets, but in russet (which is actually quite common) and featuring a zipper I'd only ever seen on a Monarch.


(I suppose there's not much point to this thread, beyond "hey, isn't this a beautiful jacket and isn't that zipper WILD?", but it's a fun jacket.)

 

[A2 B3au]

Tarnished to perfection that wee fella

 

[YoungMedic]

I thought the same thing Jan, thought maybe it was a repair

 

[mulceber]

Tarnished to perfection that wee fella

Partly tarnish, I'm sure, but mostly the remaining traces of blackening. It would have looked something like this when new:

On paper, the only A-2 contract to have a blackened bell Talon M-39 was the Monarch.

I thought the same thing Jan, thought maybe it was a repair

Always possible, but from what we can see of the stitching, there doesn't appear to be a second set of stitch holes.

 

[Spitfireace]

Partly tarnish, I'm sure, but mostly the remaining traces of blackening. It would have looked something like this when new:
View attachment 96113
On paper, the only A-2 contract to have a blackened bell Talon M-39 was the Monarch.


Always possible, but from what we can see of the stitching, there doesn't appear to be a second set of stitch holes.

That's a new one on me. I know the Monarch A-2 had a brown painted stopper box, but I wasn't aware the rest of the zipper was painted black originally. I thought that was only on the M-422. Here's a couple pics of my Monarch Talon. It guess I can see traces of black paint, I thought it was just age that gave it that patina. The brown stopper box paint is intact. I guess the brown paint was robust and the black was not?

 

[Spitfireace]

Also odd that two colours were used. Why not just use black for the whole thing?

 

[mulceber]

Yep, according to JC, the blackening effect was achieved at Talon's factory by dipping the zipper in some sort of chemical and then passing an electric current through it.

 

[Smithy]

Yep, according to JC, the blackening effect was achieved at Talon's factory by dipping the zipper in some sort of chemical and then passing an electric current through it.

Electroplating Jan

 

[mulceber]

Yes! Thank you. The blackening didn't last very well, apparently. I'm not sure why they bothered painting the zipper box brown when they were just going to electroplate the whole thing anyway

 

[Spitfireace]

I presume it was done to keep the zipper from shining and catching the eye of the enemy, although when you are in a plane how would that happen? Also this is the only contract that went to that trouble to do this?

 

[Smithy]

I presume it was done to keep the zipper from shining and catching the eye of the enemy, although when you are in a plane how would that happen? Also this is the only contract that went to that trouble to do this?

No I don't think so in this case. Electroplating is also often done to protect against corrosion and abrasion and I think this is a far more likely reasoning.

 

[mulceber]

although when you are in a plane how would that happen?

I think the worry was if the airman was shot down and was trying to evade capture. It's not quite the only contract though: the Fried-Ostermann and the Rough Wear 1671 contracts both have blackened zippers (just not bell talons). And starting in '42, you also see a lot of dull nickel zippers being created, whereas previously they'd all been shiny. I suspect electroplating was a pain in the ass when they needed to make millions of garments, and dull nickel was easier. So they tried to have the companies mostly make dull nickel zippers that would be less reflective, but basically took any zipper they could get their hands on.

 

[Spitfireace]

Well, I guess the Monarch contract being produced very early in the war gave them the luxury of having the time (or thinking they had time, they didn't know what lay ahead) for little details like that, whereas as you say later on, they didn't have the time.

 

[Dany McDonald]

I suppose there's not much point to this thread, beyond "hey....."

Quite the contraire Jan, I like those discussions about hardware, especially zippers in all shape or forms!

Saw a Star 28557 with a Crown (don't remember the model) that looked original to the jacket, no holes or ghost stitching marks on the leather...

Wish we had more information about how manufacturers went in following the specification and respecting the deadline delivery, when, lets say, the stash of Talon M42 is getting very low but we have some Conmar available...

Dany

 

[ZuZu]

I think the worry was if the airman was shot down and was trying to evade capture. It's not quite the only contract though: the Fried-Ostermann and the Rough Wear 1671 contracts both have blackened zippers (just not bell talons). And starting in '42, you also see a lot of dull nickel zippers being created, whereas previously they'd all been shiny. I suspect electroplating was a pain in the ass when they needed to make millions of garments, and dull nickel was easier. So they tried to have the companies mostly make dull nickel zippers that would be less reflective, but basically took any zipper they could get their hands on.

I think the whole dull down the shiny zipper thing for escape/evasion is a bit of a stretch. I think this is more likely: " ... basically took any zipper they could get their hands on." Until I see paperwork I usually take many VLJ hypotheses with a grain of salt

 

[ZuZu]

Very interesting post. Like JC's 1671 RW with the straight toothed Crown this is definitely an anamoly.IMO

 

[Spitfireace]

Quite the contraire Jan, I like those discussions about hardware, especially zippers in all shape or forms!

Saw a Star 28557 with a Crown (don't remember the model) that looked original to the jacket, no holes or ghost stitching marks on the leather...

Wish we had more information about how manufacturers went in following the specification and respecting the deadline delivery, when, lets say, the stash of Talon M42 is getting very low but we have some Conmar available...

Dany

I don't think they thought that in the future jacket collectors would be picking apart the slightest details of these jackets.

 

[ZuZu]

I don't think they thought that in the future jacket collectors would be picking apart the slightest details of these jackets.

I guess "they" thought wrong!

 

[mulceber]

Wish we had more information about how manufacturers went in following the specification and respecting the deadline delivery, when, lets say, the stash of Talon M42 is getting very low but we have some Conmar available...

I don't think the manufacturer was supplying the zippers - I think the government supplied them. If so there was a warehouse somewhere in 1942 with millions of zippers (and who knows what else), and whenever a jacket manufacturer won a contract, enough zippers to fill the contract (maybe with a few left over) would be sent to the jacket manufacturer.

 

[Smithy]

I think the whole dull down the shiny zipper thing for escape/evasion is a bit of a stretch. I think this is more likely: " ... basically took any zipper they could get their hands on." Until I see paperwork I usually take many VLJ hypotheses with a grain of salt

I agree. Lots of flight gear had relatively shiny zippers, A-4 flight suits being one example.

The USAAF and USAF weren't exactly known for worrying about the visibility of flying kit on the ground in the early days once it got out of the aircraft. Blue B-15 jackets being the height of this folly ;-)