Full grain or top grain

[TrainDriver]

The question was raised on one of FiveStar’s Facebook pages as to whether they use full grain or top grain horsehide. It led to a post that stated someone had emailed 5* and gotten the response in the attached screenshot. It all seemed a bit of marketing gobbledygook without really saying full or top grain.

I had stated that if these are supposed to be accurate repros as they advertise, then they should use whatever the original contracts called for, assuming full grain. I then went to the ACME Depot “history” page and reviewed some of the original requirements and none stated that the jackets are supposed to be full grain.

All that just to ask if FiveStar’s jackets (or anyone else’s for that matter) are full or top grain? If it wasn’t specified in the original contracts, does it really matter? I’m sure the higher end makers use full, but if someone else doesn’t, does it and should it matter to you?

 

[Shanghai-Mayne]

There was an old thread here, discussed such question. It’s a way of gaining the value of products, AKA we used best quality hide on the market.

 

[Chandler]

Top grain leather is full grain leather that has been lightly sanded to remove imperfections in order to be aesthetically pleasing to customers.

Based on handling of a few, and pictures of many originals, I'd say there was no thought of leather aesthetics.

That said, I have no idea what Five Star uses, but -- semi-tanned?

 

[Southoftheborder]

The question was raised on one of FiveStar’s Facebook pages as to whether they use full grain or top grain horsehide. It led to a post that stated someone had emailed 5* and gotten the response in the attached screenshot. It all seemed a bit of marketing gobbledygook without really saying full or top grain.

I had stated that if these are supposed to be accurate repros as they advertise, then they should use whatever the original contracts called for, assuming full grain. I then went to the ACME Depot “history” page and reviewed some of the original requirements and none stated that the jackets are supposed to be full grain.

All that just to ask if FiveStar’s jackets (or anyone else’s for that matter) are full or top grain? If it wasn’t specified in the original contracts, does it really matter? I’m sure the higher end makers use full, but if someone else doesn’t, does it and should it matter to you?

Well leaving aside whether they were to be made out of full grain hide or not - and I don't think the USAAF cared about that. The original contracts called for chrome tanned leather. But since most of them don't use chrome tanned hide and even the best repro maker Good Wear has switched to using a lot of vegetable tanned leather now in response to customer demand; none of them can really be called totally accurate repros.

 

[TrainDriver]

Top grain leather is full grain leather that has been lightly sanded to remove imperfections in order to be aesthetically pleasing to customers.

Based on handling of a few, and pictures of many originals, I'd say there was no thought of leather aesthetics.

That said, I have no idea what Five Star uses, but -- semi-tanned?

Perhaps he meant semi-aniline.

 

[TrainDriver]

Even the much maligned, the scourges of the leather jacket world, US Wings and Cockpit USA use full grain.

If FiveStar uses top grain, someone postulated that may be a reason why their products are less expensive than the others. What about Avi, since Avi and FiveStar are at a similar price point?

 

[Juanito]

Well leaving aside whether they were to be made out of full grain hide or not - and I don't think the USAAF cared about that. The original contracts called for chrome tanned leather. But since most of them don't use chrome tanned hide and even the best repro maker Good Wear has switched to using a lot of vegetable tanned leather now in response to customer demand; none of them can really be called totally accurate repros.

Bingo. Same for the pigment vs. aniline and semi-aniline finish.

...and that is not to mention all of the custom tailoring that is yeat another step away from being an accurate repo.

 

[Skyhawk]

In my experience, what is being called top grain leather in this thread ("Corrected Grain" or "Normalized" Leather are some other technical terms), is no more or less expensive than full grain leather.

Original hides were Chrome tanned, pigment finished, some were drum dyed, some were just pigment finished and have a light color on the back of the hide.

The Veggie tanning and aniline finishes are an attempt to make the hides "LOOK" like the originals after they aged 80+ years. It's not a replication of the original hides in the sense of how they were tanned.

This has all been said before on this forum so it's no big revelation.

I doubt there was ever an original A-2 made with Corrected grain hide. That makes no sense for these jackets. They were not fashion jackets.

 

[Chandler]

If FiveStar uses top grain, someone postulated that may be a reason why their products are less expensive than the others.

Top grain isn't less expensive than full grain. In fact, the added work to top grain could probably give an excuse to make it more expensive than full grain, but I've not seen that in the leather items I've shopped.

 

[TrainDriver]

Top grain isn't less expensive than full grain. In fact, the added work to top grain could probably give an excuse to make it more expensive than full grain, but I've not seen that in the leather items I've shopped.

I couldn’t imagine that the use of top v/s full would make an almost $1000 difference.

 

[Chandler]

I couldn’t imagine that the use of top v/s full would make an almost $1000 difference.

Probably not.

 

[mulceber]

Gary Eastman preserves the original specs for the leather in his book (page 32 for horsehide, 34 for goat, & 38 for cowhide) and each one specifies full grain leather.

Now, as we've seen with Mark Hutchins, what the rules were and what was actually done are two different matters. For example, it's VERY clear that tanners were shipping cowhide years before the AAF actually authorized cowhide. That said, the general tone of the document suggests the AAF was really concerned about the quality of the leather, and little details about how it would react to the elements, so I think they were probably strict about the full grain requirement.

Not sure if Shawn's jackets are full grain or top grain. His Dubow goatskin certainly looks like "full" to my eyes.

 

[Chandler]

Not sure if Shawn's jackets are full grain or top grain. His Dubow goatskin certainly looks like "full" to my eyes.

I wonder about goatskin. With such prominent (and deep?) natural graining I wonder if they can actually create a top grain goatskin?

 

[Chandler]

Good article.

Understanding Leather Grains: Top Grain, Full Grain vs Corrected Grain Leather | The Tannery Row | Leather Distributor

Find out the difference between top grain leather vs. full grain leather vs corrected grain leather. See which is the best quality for various uses.

www.thetanneryrow.com

 

[Pa12]

Good article.

Understanding Leather Grains: Top Grain, Full Grain vs Corrected Grain Leather | The Tannery Row | Leather Distributor

Find out the difference between top grain leather vs. full grain leather vs corrected grain leather. See which is the best quality for various uses.

www.thetanneryrow.com

Interesting. I was surprised when they said horween is thicker. My horween jackets actually feel thinner and lighter.

 

[Chandler]

Interesting. I was surprised when they said horween is thicker. My horween jackets actually feel thinner and lighter.

Probably depends on the hide and what the manufacturer picked for their use.

The nubuck hide (sanded top grain) on my Iron Rangers is far thicker than any flight jacket I own.

 

[mulceber]

Yeah, any tannery's leather will vary in thickness depending on how much of the underside is shaved off.

 

[Chandler]

Yeah, any tannery's leather will vary in thickness depending on how much of the underside is shaved off.

I think that's a choice made depending on what usage a particular batch is designated for (shoes, belts, jackets, upholstery).

 

[mulceber]

I think that's a choice made depending on what usage a particular batch is designated for (shoes, belts, jackets, upholstery).

Yes, but my point was that a generic statement like "Horween is a thicker leather" isn't very helpful, and the article writer probably had a specific offering by Horween in mind.

 

[Chandler]

Yes, but my point was that a generic statement like "Horween is a thicker leather" isn't very helpful, and the article writer probably had a specific offering by Horween in mind.

Yeah, reading that section he talks about Horween being known for its thicker hides -- which makes sense since they provide a lot of shoe leather and probably not a lot of sofa leather.