Eastman Star or Original?

[Clark J]

Ok so we all know what went down,,,not real hard to connect the dots,,,seller who probably paid very little for the item didn't get as much as he should have..boo who!Maybe someone here did some thing not so cool and yes that REALLY pisses me off!!!!!!!Almost as much as the fact that it wasn't ME who got the jacket!!,,,,,,and the the other 30 guys here that feel the same way.

 

[saucerfiend]

Maybe the buyer could confirm it wasn't him that told the seller it was an Eastman.
I imagine it wasn't, in which case no problem, but if it was, definitely not great!

They are two entirely different situations surely. Emailing the seller with bad info in order to buy the jacket cheaper is pretty poor behaviour but if it was someone else who messaged the seller and the buyer just snapped it up, not really an issue.

I don't think anyone is suggesting criminality either, just ungentlemanly behaviour.

T

I think this debate has gone far enough. NO, I didn't email the seller and tell him it was an Eastman. I wouldn't even know what an Eastman Star looks like. My understanding to what it might be, came from reading this thread. Andrew mentioned in his post that he suspected it was a lightly worn original. I know HE is knowledgeable. and acted on his comment. When I pulled the trigger, I wasn't really sure what I was getting. After I bought it I pm'd Andrew and emailed John Chapman to get their thoughts. Andrew said he was 99% sure it was original and JC said it was definitely and original Star. Both congradulated me. And with this info, I made the post that said "I finally got my original". There you have it. Now, let's put an end to this!

Brian

 

[Hamsterbear]

Scenario:

You're driving down a street, and you see a garage sale.
So you stop to look....
Off on a table you see a pile of WWII uniforms, a "50-mission" crusher, goggles, leather helmet and a decent A-2 and other smaller items....
(your heart skips)
You ask about the items, and the old lady says," Oh, that's just old army stuff my deceased husband Harry kept all these years, I've been trying to get him to get rid of that junk for years.....Harry passed away last month, so I'm getting rid of his things finally......I'll let you have it all for $100....is that too much?"
Do you tell the old lady what the stuff is worth? or snag it up as fast as you can, especially before any family members show up to kill the deal?
Scenario 2:

You're browsing a thrift store/Goodwill in a small town that was next to the gas station you stopped at just off the interstate....in the men's jacket rack you find a WWII Weber A-2 in a 40R for $75......

Do you run up to the clerk and announce that it's worth 20X that? Or do you buy it and sell on eBay to a jacket collector for a handsome profit?


How about those ads back in the 1970's/80's that used to run in the flying magazines soliciting to purchase "Old flight/bomber leather jackets" will pay up to $75

Was that ethical?

I think those that complain about a deal that is none of their business might not had the jacket ended up in their hands.....

Just sayin'...

 

[Persimmon]

Maybe the buyer could confirm it wasn't him that told the seller it was an Eastman.
I imagine it wasn't, in which case no problem, but if it was, definitely not great!

They are two entirely different situations surely. Emailing the seller with bad info in order to buy the jacket cheaper is pretty poor behaviour but if it was someone else who messaged the seller and the buyer just snapped it up, not really an issue.

I don't think anyone is suggesting criminality either, just ungentlemanly behaviour.

T

I think this debate has gone far enough. NO, I didn't email the seller and tell him it was an Eastman. I wouldn't even know what an Eastman Star looks like. My understanding to what it might be, came from reading this thread. Andrew mentioned in his post that he suspected it was a lightly worn original. I know HE is knowledgeable. and acted on his comment. When I pulled the trigger, I wasn't really sure what I was getting. After I bought it I pm'd Andrew and emailed John Chapman to get their thoughts. Andrew said he was 99% sure it was original and JC said it was definitely and original Star. Both congradulated me. And with this info, I made the post that said "I finally got my original". There you have it. Now, let's put an end to this!

Brian

Brian
Personally I don't think the "this" is necessary about your purchase of the jacket.
You have acted correctly from what you have said and saw an opportunity to purchase.

For me it the question of whether it is morally right that we (the members on this Forum) who knew/best guess knew that it was an original should not have informed the Ebayer.

As I stated earlier quite a few Forum members have on previous occasions emailed Ebayers about a jacket they are selling
(ie) Its not an original its a repro and you should change the info otherwise you are potentially defrauding etc etc etc

Should we as Forum members not have informed the Ebayer that he had been seriously misled and that it was an original.
It should work both ways or is it just plain greed that gets in the way sometimes to get the deal.

I think there are Forum members on here you believe that it was bad form not to emailed and informed him.
Well I certaintly do at least.

For you, you have your original so well done.

For me, I feel sorry for the Ebayer who has been cheated out of serious money by a mysterious "expert" and that we as a Forum did not then have enough courage to inform him of the error when we knew it was an Original.

I hope that I never get cheated in this way and this is why I feel I let this guy done by not bothering to send him a message before it was picked up cheaply.

We are all different but I hope we all still share strong standards of fairness.

And in terms of the scenario ... I would rather not cheat my way through life to get things I want.

 

[ButteMT61]

I like your posts Alan.

Brian: why oh why didn't you post this sooner? I don't think for the life of me that the person that emailed the seller wasn't from here. So, Brian says it wasn't him. Someone here did. I could turn that into a tag-team conspiracy, but I won't.
For anyone to think that telling a seller it's a repop knowing it's not, then turning and buying it cheap isn't sh*t, then I misjudged you here. I'm all for a deal. If the seller simply came to the conclusion that it was a repop, and lowered the price, good on you (Brian). If there was any collusion on false info to acquire a jacket cheaply I suggest karma might be around the corner.

Alan made some great points. I OTOH, still feel too let down to do so.

 

[omarco]

I would be very surprised/amazed/put out if anybody from here emailed the seller to tell them the jacket was a repro in order that it be got cheaply by another member.. thats pretty low... i'm sure no one here is guilty of such a thing.

Maybe the 'expert' genuinely thought it a repro? i did just because of the immaculate condition but then i am certainly NOT an expert.. and just to be clear i didnt email anybody about anything

 

[Jeff M]

I would be very surprised/amazed/put out if anybody from here emailed the seller to tell them the jacket was a repro in order that it be got cheaply by another member.. thats pretty low... i'm sure no one here is guilty of such a thing.

That's my belief also...yet folks seem eager to jump to that conclusion. :shock:

 

[ButteMT61]

I would be very surprised/amazed/put out if anybody from here emailed the seller to tell them the jacket was a repro in order that it be got cheaply by another member.. thats pretty low... i'm sure no one here is guilty of such a thing.

That's my belief also...yet folks seem eager to jump to that conclusion. :shock:

I don't think so. Brian didn't come out and say "No, I didn't do that" nor did anyone else. It seemed fishy given the thread here and sudden change of events on the auction. Most here seem disappointed that someone would do this. Some not. Those bum me out. I know Brian, and he's a great guy. That's why I was shocked that this might have gone the wrong way.

I've yet to see anyone say "nobody here told the seller it was an Eastman". Someone did. And I'd wager that someone was from here.

 

[jschare]

I bet it was someone from the Fedora Lounge! Those guys are all dirty over there! :lol:

 

[767fo]

:lol:

 

[ButteMT61]

I was thinking COW.

 

[omarco]

if there was some weird collusion between two members in order that one of them get a jacket cheap i think everyone would be bummed out... i dont think there was though

 

[blackrat2]

Congrats on what looks like a stunning jacket...shame you had to explain an innocent purchase to everyone...as has been eluded to in this thread...did anyone bitch and moan when an Irvin was purchased from a store earlier in the year from a store where the sales person didn't know what was hanging from a rack..NO
I would like to think that we VLJ'ers should have a tad more faith in each others honesty

 

[Roughwear]

This is not a court and Brian should not feel compelled to explain anything about his purchase to anyone here.

 

[Persimmon]

This is not a court and Brian should not feel compelled to explain anything about his purchase to anyone here.

Andrew, its not a judgement against Brian.

For me its the moral question.
If we are so quick to judge and tell an Ebayer if its a misleading jacket.
(ie) its not an original its a repro...

Then surely its only fair to tell an Ebayer its a real one and not a repro (especially as he was told different ...and by whom )
Or are we all just in it to get the deal, no matter what ??

As you pointed it out to Brian it was 99% an original the question is why you did not inform the Ebayer.
And why after hearing from you on the Forum I did not do the same. Or anyone else for that matter.

Personally I think some standards slipped here

 

[Peter Graham]

I've been involved in this forum in it's various incarnations for close on a decade and I've seen some really shitty behaviour and this is another example. As I said in my first post in this thread, the seller should really have known exactly what he had but someone fed him duff information which enabled Brian to buy the jacket for a knockdown price. I'm not implicating Brian in this. Maybe he was in the right place at the right time but I know of one forum member who has posted in this thread who is completely capable of underhand behaviour. For the record, I'm not jealous that Brian snagged the jacket. I wouldn't pay $750 for an A-2, original or repro. It's not worth it to me. Thank God that there are so many members here capable of selfless generosity who far outnumber the greedy and the sharks. Alan has made more sense in this thread than anyone and I respect him greatly for that. Some others here should think about his words.

 

[Roughwear]

This is not a court and Brian should not feel compelled to explain anything about his purchase to anyone here.

Andrew, its not a judgement against Brian.

For me its the moral question.
If we are so quick to judge and tell an Ebayer if its a misleading jacket.
(ie) its not an original its a repro...

Then surely its only fair to tell an Ebayer its a real one and not a repro (especially as he was told different ...and by whom )
Or are we all just in it to get the deal, no matter what ??

As you pointed it out to Brian it was 99% an original the question is why you did not inform the Ebayer.
And why after hearing from you on the Forum I did not do the same. Or anyone else for that matter.

Personally I think some standards slipped here

I have no idea who informed the seller it was an Eastman. However the seller was quite clear it was an original. You are bidding on a beautiful WWll bomber jacket which has had very little use. It looks like it has hung in a closet most of its life. There are so many original jackets on Ebay Alan that I would not even contemplate emailing each and telling them their jackets are original! :lol:

Brian got lucky and yes he now owns a very nice all original Star. His detailed photos which I hope he posts here confirm this jacket dates to 1942.

 

[kiltie]

... If an expert knows something and lies to someone, it might not be "illegal" but it's clearly in the realm of a$$hole in my book. Think what you like, if that's the company here, I'm truly disappointed.

I know where jschare, the member who made the post that provoked the above comment, is coming from. After spending a day dealing with real problems ( he as a policeman, me in another job ), this is a lot less than a big deal, and certainly doesn't seem worthy the outright...bitterness. Especially in a community as focused and with so few members.

With regards to the quote above, it's reactionary, not well thought out, and leads to the sort of circular vitriol. Now I'm all for standards, men being men, a code if you will. But jschare works in the real world. Butte: what EXPERT gave his appraisal of the jacket? What credentials did that EXPERT provide to the seller? Why should the seller lend any merit to the appraisal? Dood - my MOM could have written in and told the seller it was an Eastman. Anyone with a library card. ANYONE. It's up to the seller to take that information or not.
I'm on an Apple right now. Is my Apple better than your (hypothetical) PC because some 22y/o hipster rocking the same facial hair he's had since he was 14 tells me so? Hell no! I bought it cos I thought it was cool. But if I was smarter, I'd say I did so because of some ( non-existant ) research.
Anyway - Butte, Peter Graham: Your passion to do the right thing, to be a champion, a symbol... They're HIGHLY admirable qualities. But you're on the internet for cripes. On a forum about clothing. I know it's more, but that's what it boils down to. Calling out jschare on his profession?!? A policeman? In Cinci?!? That's a REAL job with REAL problems. Calling him out on an internet forum over someone else's misunderstanding is a case of poor judgement. See how I isolated the instance there? ( winky smiley ). I didn't call anyone a name or question their character: I condemned the situation. I assumed it was transient and not based on some deep flaw of character then fall to my knees and thank the Lord that none of y'all live in my city where I'm lucky enough to get paid to solve problems and gripe about them.
Before you tl;dr this post, the point is - the heat is a little disproportionate. Obviously I'm relatively new to these parts. I'd like to come back again, but to some reason and civility. You guys are being silly. And I used PG and Butte as examples - I didn't mean you exclusively or, you know, naming names. Y'all were just easy cos I've posted to you before.
Think -

P.S. - Peter Graham: you have the best signature of all time. I like Atticus' over on the hat forum from the Killer Angels, but yours is the best.

 

[Peter Graham]

P.S. - Peter Graham: you have the best signature of all time. I like Atticus' over on the hat forum from the Killer Angels, but yours is the best.

Glad you like it but I can't claim it as my own. It's the logo of the record company I help run with my friend Andy. He made it up. Check the link below my signature.

 

[ButteMT61]

... If an expert knows something and lies to someone, it might not be "illegal" but it's clearly in the realm of a$$hole in my book. Think what you like, if that's the company here, I'm truly disappointed.

I know where jschare, the member who made the post that provoked the above comment, is coming from. After spending a day dealing with real problems ( he as a policeman, me in another job ), this is a lot less than a big deal, and certainly doesn't seem worthy the outright...bitterness. Especially in a community as focused and with so few members.

Anyway - Butte, Peter Graham: Your passion to do the right thing, to be a champion, a symbol... They're HIGHLY admirable qualities. But you're on the internet for cripes. On a forum about clothing. I know it's more, but that's what it boils down to. Calling out jschare on his profession?!? A policeman? In Cinci?!? That's a REAL job with REAL problems. Calling him out on an internet forum over someone else's misunderstanding is a case of poor judgement. See how I isolated the instance there? ( winky smiley ). I didn't call anyone a name or question their character: I condemned the situation...

I'm afraid you did not read it correctly. I was using the tag "a$$hole" generically - to the "expert" that "may have" told the seller it was a repop Eastman. I only critiqued jschare's analysis that it wasn't "illegal". I stand by that - if it wasn't illegal (if done) it was most certainly immoral and an a$$ move.

See what I mean??? Now, you can apologize to me!