Definition of a good quality A-2 repro

[Anonymous]

Hi,
I will try to define a good A-2 repro jacket in terms of a high quality jacket the way I see it.
The below are just some thoughts.

Say you have a jacket that has all the details perfect but the leather is not good enough.
Would it qualify as a high quality repro? In my mind no.

Now say you have 3 jackets from 3 different manufacturers.
The details and all the materials used are exactly the same, only the leather differs. One of the 3 has better leather, so which jacket is the best? The one with the best leather I suppose. Agree?

So, leather plays an important part of the quality of the jacket. I d' say about 60-70%.
The remaining 40-30% should be distributed to 2 things. 1) the quality and accuracy of the other materials used and 2) the details and craftsmanship, inluding fit. (It is assumed that the makers have copied original patterns so there shouldn't be differences in the fit).

Basis that the materials used are more or less the same among all the high end manufacturers (zippers, snaps), and that they all have able bodied machinists who can make a decent jacket, then I 'd say most of the weight in comparing A-2 repro jackets is the quality of the leather.

Also, I think it is the quality of the leather that separates high end fashion jackets that cheap mall alternatives.

So I was going to say that according to the above,

1) 70% leather
2) 15% details
3) 15% craftmanship

But then again, you may have a jacket with the greatest leather but all the details wrong, or it displays bad craftsmanship.

That wouldn't qualify as a good repro, would it?
Of course not.

However, between 2 jackets with the 2) and 3) same, the jacket with the better leather really stands out.
The good leather really transforms the jacket, don't you think?

 

[Persimmon]

Hi,
I will try to define a good A-2 repro jacket in terms of a high quality jacket the way I see it.
The below are just some thoughts.

Say you have a jacket that has all the details perfect but the leather is not good enough.
Would it qualify as a high quality repro? In my mind no.

Now say you have 3 jackets from 3 different manufacturers.
The details and all the materials used are exactly the same, only the leather differs. One of the 3 has better leather, so which jacket is the best? The one with the best leather I suppose. Agree?

So, leather plays an important part of the quality of the jacket. I d' say about 60-70%.
The remaining 40-30% should be distributed to 2 things. 1) the quality and accuracy of the other materials used and 2) the details and craftsmanship, inluding fit. (It is assumed that the makers have copied original patterns so there shouldn't be differences in the fit).

Basis that the materials used are more or less the same among all the high end manufacturers (zippers, snaps), and that they all have able bodied machinists who can make a decent jacket, then I 'd say most of the weight in comparing A-2 repro jackets is the quality of the leather.

Also, I think it is the quality of the leather that separates high end fashion jackets that cheap mall alternatives.

So I was going to say that according to the above,

1) 70% leather
2) 15% details
3) 15% craftmanship

But then again, you may have a jacket with the greatest leather but all the details wrong, or it displays bad craftsmanship.

That wouldn't qualify as a good repro, would it?
Of course not.

However, between 2 jackets with the 2) and 3) same, the jacket with the better leather really stands out.
The good leather really transforms the jacket, don't you think?

As this is a repro A2 jacket and its not really a collector's item original....

Without it fitting correctly all the best leather, details and craftmanship are neither here nor there.
If its a unsatisfactory fit then it will be traded soon into ownership.

So for me the defination of a good quality A2 repro must have fit as its prime factor.
Then leather quality and colour with details (contract specs etc) go hand in hand as a percentage and lower down the art of craftmanship.

Yes its great that JC makes them by hand all by himself but the boys and girls at Aero and Eastman and Kelso are no slouches so you pretty much get a fairly fab result craftmanship from them all.

 

[chamboid]

I'd say leather is the most important. But would say for a avid enthusiast, or collector, craftsmanship and detail a very important ( it should be 50-leather 30-build 20-detail) I have a Lost Worlds A-2 an early one and though the leather and build is great, the details really let it down. Using a Dubow pattern, but no correct zipper or snaps.

Love the jacket, it's a real great hide, 4oz (not historically accurate, but great to wear)
But the zip and snaps do let it down, and this bothered me. So I put a talon slider on and took out Dubow tag and replaced it with a no name contact that had ring snaps. When the zip goes I have a conmar a-2 zip I will have put in it. But then it's miss-match jacket, dubow shape, different tag etc, but I will be happier with it.

The Kelso I received recently, excellent (not brown nosing here but it's the first spot on repro I have owned) and was exactly what I wanted, discussed colour and lining aiming for a accurate jacket, but with what I found pleasing, Roughwear 23380 with a seal hide.

This then comes down to, who is the jacket for. Me, who would notice when wearing the Lost Worlds that's the name tag is incorrect for pattern or the snaps are incorrect? ( probably one person, me)

I could wear my Lost Worlds in one room and Kelso in another and most people wouldn't even notice the difference.

On the other hand I have a Eastman ANJ-4 and 55j14 '42 Irvin all truley great jackets, but not a maker jacket, so artistic licence is acceptable, and the quality excellent, even if the jacket is a melting pot.

So how accurate does it have to be? Does it bother be the Irvin zips say eastman, and the fact they are a dot/lightening bastard, a little, but not enough for me to change anything.

Buts its an Eastman jacket, not a Wearing etc so I will accep it as that. If it were to be an original maker, it might put me off.

If fit is a concern, and it's a patterned original maker jacket, if followed correctly the fit should be the fit, if you like it or not.

Hope this makes all sense

 

[2jakes]

Interesting comments ! A little confused but...
Basically then... a "good quality A-2 repo"….
should have the "best" leather along with good fit
& correct details & material to original specs. ?
Or did I miss something ?
Thanks !

 

[Andreart]

the best A-2 repo is the one YOU like.

 

[2jakes]

the best A-2 repo is the one YOU like.

That pretty much says it all !

 

[chamboid]

the best A-2 repo is the one YOU like.

Yeah what he said, just used a lot less words than I did.

 

[Roughwear]

the best A-2 repo is the one YOU like.

That pretty much says it all !

True.

 

[Persimmon]

[quote="Roughwear the best A-2 repo is the one YOU like.[/quote]

That pretty much says it all ![/quote]

True. [/quote]

Does it ??

So who here collects repro A2's that are in a size that does not fit them but they ..like them ?

I can understand collecting original's that are a different size for display purposes although I think most in the collecting band aim eventually get to the point of purchasing for there own size to wear (albeit on occasion)

Does anyone actually display their repro's on mannequins I wonder !!

The defination of a good/best repro is one that fits them to perfection and perhaps that's why many keep trading them in for the holy grail of perfect look and fit as we are never satisfied.

 

[Anonymous]

The jacket that fits me perfectly make look like a sack of potatoes on somebody else.
So fit should be taken out of the equation if we are talking about regular sizes.
Regular sizes should fit somebody with regular size body, like off the rack clothing does (in most cases).

The jacket I like is not necessarily the best repro, because as I said in another thread, I like the US Wings fuller cut with blue lining and the National Geographic A-2 with the map lining. That's not the best for anybody but me.

We are looking for the best for the majority, so got to be objective I think.

 

[Roughwear]

[quote="Roughwear the best A-2 repo is the one YOU like.

That pretty much says it all ![/quote]

True. [/quote]

Does it ??

So who here collects repro A2's that are in a size that does not fit them but they ..like them ?

I can understand collecting original's that are a different size for display purposes although I think most in the collecting band aim eventually get to the point of purchasing for there own size to wear (albeit on occasion)

Does anyone actually display their repro's on mannequins I wonder !!

The defination of a good/best repro is one that fits them to perfection and perhaps that's why many keep trading them in for the holy grail of perfect look and fit as we are never satisfied.[/quote]


Humour can get lost on the net Alan. I'm not sure we all gave a serious or considered reply.

 

[2jakes]

[quote="Roughwear the best A-2 repo is the one YOU like.

That pretty much says it all ![/quote]

True. [/quote]

Does it ??

So who here collects repro A2's that are in a size that does not fit them but they ..like them ?

I can understand collecting original's that are a different size for display purposes although I think most in the collecting band aim eventually get to the point of purchasing for there own size to wear (albeit on occasion)

Does anyone actually display their repro's on mannequins I wonder !!

The defination of a good/best repro is one that fits them to perfection and perhaps that's why many keep trading them in for the holy grail of perfect look and fit as we are never satisfied.[/quote]

With all respect & correct me if I'm not right…but isn't what you
stated basically the same as what Andreart said , but with less
words ?

 

[Persimmon]

Oh to hell and fcuk it

I am going to start colecting Repro's in other sizes and put them on mannequins !!









Only jesting dear friends

 

[Andreart]

So who here collects repro A2's that are in a size that does not fit them but they ..like them ?

well i don't. that would be a waste of leather. :lol:

 

[Persimmon]

So who here collects repro A2's that are in a size that does not fit them but they ..like them ?

well i don't. that would be a waste of leather. :lol:

horse steer goat cape ........

 

[herk115]

>So who here collects repro A2's that are in a size that does not fit them but they ..like them ?


Well...I don't exactly collect them, but I have two Perrone 1756 "No Name" repros from the late 90's that I have outgrown, yet I cannot bring myself to get rid of them because they are such well made jackets and I had great times with them. I might do them up with rank and patches to repro my father's A-2 and frame them. Then again, my USAF-issued Cooper, which I have also outgrown, is destined for a frame as well.

On the subject of leather: You say "good" leather is the big factor. Can you define "good leather"? It's so subjective. For example, I, too, have a Lost Worlds Dubow that is probably historically incorrect, but on me it has "the look" and that hide (though again, historically incorrect) just feels and looks *great*! So in many cases I prefer something that other hard core collectors would say is "not good." How do we define it?

 

[Rutger]

So who here collects repro A2's that are in a size that does not fit them but they ..like them ?

Well I think one member here from the southern hemisphere is pretty much that type of collector, and combines it with selling and reselling. I assume he aims at getting his own size, but if it's an off-size (?) jacket he really likes he'll buy it anyway and might sell it on later (on several occasions to my pleasure and hopefully to his advantage).

Good quality A2 repro doesn't depend on fit/size, but solely on it's accuracy as a reproduction. That includes the type of leather, the cut of the panels, the ways of sewing it together, and the choice of all materials involved. For perfection, it should also include the occasional fraudulent use of steerhide instead of horse.

How often haven't we seen adds that sell on jackets of supreme, insurpassable quality that are for sale due to fit issues?
Apparently then, the quality of the jacket doesn't involve fit, but rather the fit depends on the quality of the tailor (or the deviation from the buyer's body from standard sizing).

 

[2jakes]

So who here collects repro A2's that are in a size that does not fit them but they ..like them ?

Well I think one member here from the southern hemisphere is pretty much that type of collector, and combines it with selling and reselling. I assume he aims at getting his own size, but if it's an off-size (?) jacket he really likes he'll buy it anyway and might sell it on later (on several occasions to my pleasure and hopefully to his advantage).

Good quality A2 repro doesn't depend on fit/size, but solely on it's accuracy as a reproduction. That includes the type of leather, the cut of the panels, the ways of sewing it together, and the choice of all materials involved. For perfection, it should also include the occasional fraudulent use of steerhide instead of horse.



How often haven't we seen adds that sell on jackets of supreme, insurpassable quality that are for sale due to fit issues?
Apparently then, the quality of the jacket doesn't involve fit, but rather the fit depends on the quality of the tailor (or the deviation from the buyer's body from standard sizing).

Huh ? :shock:

 

[Anonymous]

Good quality A2 repro doesn't depend on fit/size, but solely on it's accuracy as a reproduction. That includes the type of leather, the cut of the panels, the ways of sewing it together, and the choice of all materials involved. For perfection, it should also include the occasional fraudulent use of steerhide instead of horse.

How often haven't we seen adds that sell on jackets of supreme, insurpassable quality that are for sale due to fit issues?
Apparently then, the quality of the jacket doesn't involve fit, but rather the fit depends on the quality of the tailor (or the deviation from the buyer's body from standard sizing).

"Good quality A2 repro doesn't depend on fit/size, but solely on it's accuracy as a reproduction."

I totally agree with this. Because maybe your size is 46 and you own a size 40 for your mannequin and then someone brings you a repro of the size 40 to evaluate. Fit is irrelevant, because the size 40 original also does not fit you. The jacket that does not fit you may fit someone else perfectly. So we can't judge basis the fit.

Regarding leather, we have seen some jacket from Goodwear which look very good but they are not accurate because the leather he uses is better than that found on originals. What is the verdict then? Not good?

I don't think so. I 'd rather have a very well made jacket with all the right details built in a leather that's considered very good today (we live in 2013) than to have a good jacket with the kind of cheap leather they used in the 40s.

On the subject of leather: You say "good" leather is the big factor. Can you define "good leather"? It's so subjective. For example, I, too, have a Lost Worlds Dubow that is probably historically incorrect, but on me it has "the look" and that hide (though again, historically incorrect) just feels and looks *great*! So in many cases I prefer something that other hard core collectors would say is "not good." How do we define it?

This is a very good question that needs to be answered.

I will try to answer it.

The best leather is the "Full Grain Leather". That is a leather that retains all its natural characteristics and its grain. Its surface grain is not processed/altered in any way. Here we must distinguish between grain and wrinkles. It's a totally different thing. Wrinkles can be developped with wear and use on a smooth and grainless hide (jacket). While wrinkles are nice to have, they don't determine the quality of the leather, as grain does.

When the animals are slaughtered and the skins are collected, they inspect the skins and put aside those that have good grain and less natural marks, holes, scars, etc and can have more usable area per skin than all the others. These are the best and of course the smallest percenatage of the 'crop' that's why they are more expensive.

When these selected full grain leathers are tanned, they give them the aniline finish which is a dye bath in aniline dye. The skins are soaked in it and the dye penetrates the hides but allowing the natural grain to show through. Only the best hides which are relatively free from imperfections can be made into aniline finish leather.

That said, aniline is a transparent dye which colors the hide from the inside out but without covering its grain. So the natural grain remains visible and the pores of the hide remain open.

To summarize, the best leather is the full grain leather that has been dyed with aniline i.e. "the Full Grain Pure Aniline Finish"
Emphasis is given to 'pure' which means 'aniline only' because in some cases they use aniline and some additive dyes to dye the leather.
You understand that if you have full grain leathers at your hands, aniline is the only way to go, otherwise you waste the quality of the skins.

The second best, is called Top Grain leather which is also very good, but because of imperfections on its surface, it is sanded or buffed to become better (more uniform) in appearance. It's surface is usually smooth with minimal grain.

I give below the explanation of buffing and Wikipedia's definition of Top Grain Leather.

Buffing
Hides are often buffed with an abrasive wheel to minimize the appearance of gross surface imperfections such as wrinkles, parasitic damage or healed scratches in the finished product.. This process makes the leather more uniform, but also obliterates the natural grain and markings that makes each hide unique and naturally beautiful.

Top-grain leather (the most common type used in high-end leather products) is the second-highest quality. It has had the "split" layer separated away, making it thinner and more pliable than full-grain. Its surface has been sanded and a finish coat added to the surface which results in a colder, plastic feel with less breathability, and it will not develop a natural patina. It is typically less expensive and has greater resistance to stains than full-grain leather, so long as the finish remains unbroken.

That said, this below is not patina. It's called 'wearing out'. I will try to find some patina photos to show later.

The finish of Top Grain leather can be aniline, semi-aniline and pigment (like spray painted). Semi-aniline is aniline plus pigment.
It's the smooth leather you see in most fashion jackets, even the most expensive ones.
So, when you see a leather that's dyed so that you can still see the pores, you know it's aniline, but if it's smooth, (even if it's wrinkled) it's Top Grain.

Example of Full Grain horsehide.

You will not see this grain on Top Grain leathers.

The Full Grain Leather is much more expensive and rarely encountered. It's the kind of leather found in shoes that cost over $1500 a pair, or ultra high expensive furniture. It really is great and miles ahead of top grain and having seen the difference, believe it's worth the money. It will develop an amazing patina over time (nothing like the discoloration shown in the 1st photo).

 

[Anonymous]

I forgot to say that tanning method has nothing to do with the quality of the leather (before it's tanned that is).

There are full grain leathers tanned with Chrome, but because Vegetable tanning takes longer time (i.e. occupies the drums for longer time which means less production per year) and is more costly due to higher cost of natural ingredients, the vegetable tanned leathers are more expensive.

So if you take 2 skins of Full Grain Leather from the same batch and tan one with Chrome and the other with Vegetables, the latter will be more expensive and will be considered of higher quality. To that you can add more value in that it is a more prestigious leather since there are very few tanners in the world who still use veg. tanning, making it more unique let's say.

Also, vegetable tanned leathers age better, so over time develop a nicer appearance and as such vegerable tanning is considered better.

Hence, it would be more complete to say that the best leather would be the "Full Grain Vegetable Tanned Pure Aniline Finish".

(I think my last two posts deserve a thread of their own).