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Cockput USA Horsehide A2 jackets
- Thread starter ww2imp
- Start date
DiamondDave
Well-Known Member
Juan,
No offense is intended here, in any way.... but you did ask.
That said, however, I can say that the lack of decent zippers, poor pattern, thin leather and mostly poly knits make this a sub-standard item at best. Some here will say that it is a fair thing if one is looking for a very budget, or entry level
jacket. I however, and many that I know on this forum, will always save for a few more months, and get one of the top 3 western repros, Goodwear, Eastman or Aero...and the latter two would be only after exhausting any option for a GW! I say this, especially since I need a size 46 and cannot get a good fit from a Japanese company.
Hope that this is helpful.
DD
No offense is intended here, in any way.... but you did ask.
That said, however, I can say that the lack of decent zippers, poor pattern, thin leather and mostly poly knits make this a sub-standard item at best. Some here will say that it is a fair thing if one is looking for a very budget, or entry level jacket. I however, and many that I know on this forum, will always save for a few more months, and get one of the top 3 western repros, Goodwear, Eastman or Aero...and the latter two would be only after exhausting any option for a GW! I say this, especially since I need a size 46 and cannot get a good fit from a Japanese company.
Hope that this is helpful.
DD
DiamondDave said:Juan,
No offense is intended here, in any way.... but you did ask.
jacket. I however, and many that I know on this forum, will always save for a few more months, and get one of the top 3 western repros, Goodwear, Eastman or Aero...and the latter two would be only after exhausting any option for a GW! I say this, especially since I need a size 46 and cannot get a good fit from a Japanese company.
Hope that this is helpful.
DD
Not at all. Thanks for posting. Have you seen specifically their Horsehide russet A2 though?
zoomer
Well-Known Member
Something can always be done, and in this case there is a good place to start, as The Cockpit already makes a somewhat accurate looking A-2: the patched Flying Tiger model.
Flying Tiger
Notice how different the collar, pockets, and placement of pockets are from The Cockpit's standard horsehide A-2.
Standard Horse
The Tiger model is a lot closer to original A-2s, with more shape to the collar (in fact it appears to have a stand collar) and smaller, wider-spaced pockets.
The standard model really has a mass-market appearance it doesn't need to have. I own one and it's a good wearer, but has little personality even after a thorough break-in.
Now on to finish and appointments. The Tiger model could be improved by availability without insignia, with all-wool knits, and a tawnier, less chocolaty russet color. Hot water immersion would be a good start to age the hide authentically, without any distressing processes, which always look phoney anyway.
Notice how different the collar, pockets, and placement of pockets are from The Cockpit's standard horsehide A-2.
The Tiger model is a lot closer to original A-2s, with more shape to the collar (in fact it appears to have a stand collar) and smaller, wider-spaced pockets.
The standard model really has a mass-market appearance it doesn't need to have. I own one and it's a good wearer, but has little personality even after a thorough break-in.
Now on to finish and appointments. The Tiger model could be improved by availability without insignia, with all-wool knits, and a tawnier, less chocolaty russet color. Hot water immersion would be a good start to age the hide authentically, without any distressing processes, which always look phoney anyway.
MikeyB-17
Well-Known Member
There were pics here a while ago of a couple of Cockpit B-3's, one with an artificially aged sheepskin which was nothing short of 'orrible (IMHO), and one (Museum edition or somesuch?) which didn't look half bad. Cockpit/Avirex have shown themselves in the past to be capable of producing a decent jacket if they put their minds to it, but have seemed for many years to prefer the ludicrous fashion jackets with escape map linings etc. As has been previously stated, most guys here are after a bit more authenticity than Cockpit seem to be prepared to produce. I've not seen the russet horse A-2, but I doubt it's going to lure many here away from Goodwear, ELC etc.
I do believe in accuracy. So don't get me wrong. Many know of my products as being among the most accurate ever made.
Believe it or not the Flying Tigers model base jacket is the off the shelf Russet Horsehide model A2 sold by Cockpit USA. So the variations in pocket location you describe may be an anomaly in runs, which is very possible.
That said, I have read many people describe slight variations in the pockets, eppauletes, collars, etc. between wartime manufactures. But, there are just as many variations in the CURRENT makers as well.
Are we talking about the... and I shutter to say it...Stitch Nazi stuff?
Stuff like stitch count, thread fiber, brass quality, time of day that the hide was tanned, if the sewing machine operator sneezed on the piece, etc. Because if that is what we are talking about then the critiques will run the gammut and you will need a magnifying glass to tell the difference.
I would very much like to know in general terms what makes an Eastman jacket so much different than a Cockpit USA? Perhaps I can convince them to make a special run of Horsehide A2s just for me based on what I learn here.
Believe it or not the Flying Tigers model base jacket is the off the shelf Russet Horsehide model A2 sold by Cockpit USA. So the variations in pocket location you describe may be an anomaly in runs, which is very possible.
That said, I have read many people describe slight variations in the pockets, eppauletes, collars, etc. between wartime manufactures. But, there are just as many variations in the CURRENT makers as well.
Are we talking about the... and I shutter to say it...Stitch Nazi stuff?
Stuff like stitch count, thread fiber, brass quality, time of day that the hide was tanned, if the sewing machine operator sneezed on the piece, etc. Because if that is what we are talking about then the critiques will run the gammut and you will need a magnifying glass to tell the difference.
I would very much like to know in general terms what makes an Eastman jacket so much different than a Cockpit USA? Perhaps I can convince them to make a special run of Horsehide A2s just for me based on what I learn here.
442RCT
New Member
I own several Cockpit-Avirex A-2s. I'm not known to be a stickler for accuracy, if they have the salient features of the A-2, I'm okay with that. I own several ELCs, Aeros, RMs, Seftons, (no Goodwears yet), and a lot of 'orphan' A-2s (Avirex, Aviation Leathercraft, US Authentic, Protech, etc.) My main complaint about the Cockpit-Avirex line of A-2s is sizing. Generally I'm a sz 40 in Aeros, Seftons and Eastmans. When I acquired my first Avirex sz 40, it was too tight in the shoulders so I bought a sz 42 HH and it fit's like a sz 44 (I'm sure it was mislabeled) I feel like Goldilocks when I bid on Avirex sizing...too small, too big, and an occasional okay fit.
As for the leather being too thin, *shrug*, I currently have around 40 A-2s. Some have thick leather and some are lighter weight. My ELC house is twice+ the weight as my ELC RW contracts. Personally I favor the lighter weight jackets...the weather in northern California isn't that cold.
As for the leather being too thin, *shrug*, I currently have around 40 A-2s. Some have thick leather and some are lighter weight. My ELC house is twice+ the weight as my ELC RW contracts. Personally I favor the lighter weight jackets...the weather in northern California isn't that cold.
Juan, your other goods are meticulously assembled from true spec materials and you are truly respected for being high end with your stuff.
Cockpit products are wearable, durable and if they were as authentic as they claim would be the market leader. Those claims wash well with those who are happy with aviation inspired clothing for their own light aircraft, sports car etc etc or for fashion purposes.
In terms of closeness to an original, they are there or thereabouts in a generic sort of way. Get a bunch of AAF Living historians together however and the Also rans/ promenaders stick out like a dogs 'nads.
Were I you I would sell them as a perfectly useable item, adding that you are selling them to help fill a gap rather than associating them with your core stock line which buys and sells cockpit with its accuracy and wearability....
Now, about those paramarine rufouts..........
Tim
Cockpit products are wearable, durable and if they were as authentic as they claim would be the market leader. Those claims wash well with those who are happy with aviation inspired clothing for their own light aircraft, sports car etc etc or for fashion purposes.
In terms of closeness to an original, they are there or thereabouts in a generic sort of way. Get a bunch of AAF Living historians together however and the Also rans/ promenaders stick out like a dogs 'nads.
Were I you I would sell them as a perfectly useable item, adding that you are selling them to help fill a gap rather than associating them with your core stock line which buys and sells cockpit with its accuracy and wearability....
Now, about those paramarine rufouts..........
Tim
John Lever
Moderator
Juan,ww2imp said:How does this B3 rate?
I used to own a version of this jacket. It was an Avirex B-3 ' Redskin '. At the time I believe Avirex and Lost Worlds used the same tannery [ 20 years ago ?]
It was a very nice jacket and I wish I had never sold it, but I don't think the ones on offer today are quite as good. The arm shape looks slightly too tubular and the outer of the SS lacks the same character. It's also a shame that the buckles have Cockpit stamped on them.
Here's my jacket that I sold to John Chapman, who also rated it very highly -
He changed the zip to a WW2 Talon.
John Lever
Moderator
No I don't think it was an RM, they have a very typical house shape for the arms and short tight cuffs.
They are very hard to find in my size 44.
They are very hard to find in my size 44.
zoomer
Well-Known Member
I think he may mean that the Cockpit horse A-2 is very far from looking or wearing like an original. The use of horsehide and a 100% cotton liner are about it - the cut and details have been very slowly modernized, probably little by little over so many years no one was aware of it at the time.
A point I mentioned earlier is the size and placement of pockets. They were originally small and widely spaced so they would be reachable with harnesses and vests overlaid. [pic] [pic] [pic]
The bigger pocket, closer to the zipper line, came in as a postwar civilian touch - men had more things to put in their pockets, and civilians could use (and wanted) handwarmers. And you can't put your hands in pockets that are back near your hips.
From there we get into things like tanning and dyeing technology, snap and zipper types, thread types and (yes!) stitching. IMHO I feel these are negotiable on a popularly priced jacket, and that material and cut should be the priority. However there will always be friends who feel that authenticity is all or nothing. That gets particularly expensive where tailored leather garments are concerned.
A point I mentioned earlier is the size and placement of pockets. They were originally small and widely spaced so they would be reachable with harnesses and vests overlaid. [pic] [pic] [pic]
The bigger pocket, closer to the zipper line, came in as a postwar civilian touch - men had more things to put in their pockets, and civilians could use (and wanted) handwarmers. And you can't put your hands in pockets that are back near your hips.
From there we get into things like tanning and dyeing technology, snap and zipper types, thread types and (yes!) stitching. IMHO I feel these are negotiable on a popularly priced jacket, and that material and cut should be the priority. However there will always be friends who feel that authenticity is all or nothing. That gets particularly expensive where tailored leather garments are concerned.
deand
Active Member
zoomer said:
I'm in total agreement with you. Getting the major visible components correct, such as single piece back, pocket placement and size, sleeve width, without extra pieces in sections, etc., do not seem to be things too hard to get right. Yet, so many orphan A-2s evidence such deviations. Indeed, modern convenience and cost are concerns causing such features.
dean
ww2imp said:
Pretty much what zoomer said ...
I mean that it isn't so close that simply changing some of the details would make it authentic. The gap between The Cockpit, and the high end repros isn't stitch nazi stuff, or just picky. To compete at that level would mean starting again from scratch ... new pattern, new hide, and then all the correct details.
zoomer
Well-Known Member
Agree completely. But couldn't there be more of a choice than a) high-end repros and b) more or less lame crap?
Back to that Cockpit horse stock model. I got mine in 2007 (tag size 44 - I wanted a 42, but shrank it in the wash and was happier with the fit). Here's what it looked like brand new and unwashed.
Back to that Cockpit horse stock model. I got mine in 2007 (tag size 44 - I wanted a 42, but shrank it in the wash and was happier with the fit). Here's what it looked like brand new and unwashed.
