Buzz Rickson - What's the big deal?

[dmar836]

Can someone explain this? From what I've seen, many(all?) have snaps with the BR name stamped in as if the fastener maker. I have also noted the labels of "Italian leather" on BR jackets. When I purchased a sofa 10 years ago, the benefit of Italian leather was touted as "there's no barbed wire in Italy." Since HH and goat is what we seek and not cowhide, what benefit is "Italian leather"? I know HPA has boasted about IL being the closest to the character of the real deal but they appear to have issues with allowing age to weather a jacket, so..... I can comment on the ELC 1933 Werber I've worn nonstop this past trip. Great jacket and feel but the time-worn treatment did nothing for the grain at all and I might have preferred aging thesurface by actual wear.
Okay, back on track. Having seen some of the funky Japanese variants, how can their jackets compete at all with GW for authenticity - especially at nearly twice the price?
Please educate me,
Dave
Kansas City,USA/Chipping Campden,UK

 

[ausreenactor]

Before JC started Good Wear, Real McCoy and Buzz Rickson were held by some as unobtainable, mythical Holy Grails, and the great debate raged between ELC and Aero. Acme Depot is still online somewhere and is well worth a look. I think ten years ago the hides, the NOS zippers and SOME of the details were what commanded the high prices. Whole new world now. I am not sure how may GW A-2s have headed to Japan, but a lot of status would be afforded to those wearing BR or the Few jackets in Japan. And GW might not be a big name there? Pure speculation on my part there. I have two BR A-2s. Both are sensational, and I paid half of a new GW price for each. I have two ELC A-2s here and one RMNZ. Neither ELC jacket is as good as the BR jackets, though the RMNZ is pretty close. My comparison of my jackets is based on hides only and not accurate replication of contract details. To be honest, the details are wasted on me. I love the smell of the BR horsehide. The RMNZ is a little funky. NOT THE LINING!! :lol: I have never had the need to splash out on a GW; however, the SAT is pretty flash. Horses for courses...(no pun intended). And as long as the Japanese keep buying them, they will make them. And remember, BR and Real McCoy make more than just A-2s. I have more than a dozen BR jackets. BR has the ability to make sensational repro B-10s, B-15s, L-2s, L-2As, L-2Bs and MA-1s and all the heavy weights as well. And the quality of those jackets has never been questioned. You can pay US$500 for a BR MA-1 or US$90 for Avirex. Looks similar...but all in the materials!! And NOS zippers!!

(Just counted 17 BR jackets.. :roll: ) And I wonder why the girl gets upset..

Couchy

 

[dadgad]

what benefit is "Italian leather"?

Italy is home to the world's leading tanning industry. It produces 15 percent of the world's production of all types of leathers and 60 percent of the European production. Italian tanneries are very much internationally oriented, working, for the most part, with foreign suppliers and clients. With almost 2,200 firms employing 25,000 people and one third of the industry concentrated within the region of Tuscany.
The secret of the Italian tanning industry are its quality and the style of the finished leather goods.

Approximately 650 tanneries are operating in the Vicenza provice, 900 in the region of Tuscany, 350 in Solofra (province of Avellino) and almost 100 in Turbigo-Castano Primo (province of Milan). The nine hundred tanneries located in Tuscany are mainly concentrated in the Santa Croce area between Pisa and Florence.

A year, the Italian tanning sector exports 159 million sq. meters of tanned leathers reaching a value of US Dols. 3.4 billion, consisting of 47.5 percent of the total sale turnover. European markets absorb 60 percent and the Far East absorb 30 percent of leathers tanned in Italy. Footwear, furnishings, clothing and leather goods manufacturers are the main end-users.
Two thirds of the raw materials used by the Italian tanning industry were imported from abroad.

 

[ausreenactor]

what benefit is "Italian leather"?

Italy is home to the world's leading tanning industry. It produces 15 percent of the world's production of all types of leathers and 60 percent of the European production. Italian tanneries are very much internationally oriented, working, for the most part, with foreign suppliers and clients. With almost 2,200 firms employing 25,000 people and one third of the industry concentrated within the region of Tuscany.
The secret of the Italian tanning industry are its quality and the style of the finished leather goods.

Approximately 650 tanneries are operating in the Vicenza provice, 900 in the region of Tuscany, 350 in Solofra (province of Avellino) and almost 100 in Turbigo-Castano Primo (province of Milan). The nine hundred tanneries located in Tuscany are mainly concentrated in the Santa Croce area between Pisa and Florence.

A year, the Italian tanning sector exports 159 million sq. meters of tanned leathers reaching a value of US Dols. 3.4 billion, consisting of 47.5 percent of the total sale turnover. European markets absorb 60 percent and the Far East absorb 30 percent of leathers tanned in Italy. Footwear, furnishings, clothing and leather goods manufacturers are the main end-users.
Two thirds of the raw materials used by the Italian tanning industry were imported from abroad.

That's lotsa leather!! There is still only one JC!!

 

[MikeyB-17]

I have a feeling 'Italian leather' is just put there to make them sound more exotic and help justify the prices. I can't comment on BR's leather jackets, never having owned or even seen one, but I've had one of their nylon jackets and that was superb, as I understand all of their nylons are-I think they have to be the top dogs for nylon repros. I'm sure their A-2's etc. are fantastic, but I think they tend to be a bit cavalier with details, and some of the colours of leather I've seen on Japanese websites have been nothing short of hideous. I love a lot of their stuff, and think it's great that there are people prepared to keep reproducing this old stuff so faithfully-although I wish I could afford some of it! As has been said, I think they were once the Holy Grail of flight jacket repros, which is how they charge as much as they do-because there have been folks prepared to pay their prices. Being hard to come by outside of Japan made them more exotic and desirable in the West too. They're still well up there, but JC I think has now surpassed them in accuracy.

 

[dadgad]

I have a feeling 'Italian leather' is just put there to make them sound more exotic and help justify the prices. I can't comment on BR's leather jackets, never having owned or even seen one, but I've had one of their nylon jackets and that was superb, as I understand all of their nylons are-I think they have to be the top dogs for nylon repros. I'm sure their A-2's etc. are fantastic, but I think they tend to be a bit cavalier with details, and some of the colours of leather I've seen on Japanese websites have been nothing short of hideous. I love a lot of their stuff, and think it's great that there are people prepared to keep reproducing this old stuff so faithfully-although I wish I could afford some of it! As has been said, I think they were once the Holy Grail of flight jacket repros, which is how they charge as much as they do-because there have been folks prepared to pay their prices. Being hard to come by outside of Japan made them more exotic and desirable in the West too. They're still well up there, but JC I think has now surpassed them in accuracy.

That is probably not related to the provenance of the leather itself but to where is tanned, 2/3 of the leather tanned in Italy is imported from abroad actually.

 

[Anonymous]

One more thing about Buzz Ricksons
I don't think they make a ROUGH WEAR with 'ROUGH WEAR' written on the label.
I think their RW labels read BUZZ RICKSON

Can anyone confirm?

 

[Mundele]

I don't think they make a ROUGH WEAR with 'ROUGH WEAR' written on the label.
I think their RW labels read BUZZ RICKSON

I have a Buzz A2 from 2003 which is based on the Rough Wear but with a label "Buzz Rickson Clothing Co., Middletown, PA."

However looking at the catalogue from that year they also produced a Bronco Hide waxed leather 30s model and a 1943 Model Bronco Hide. Both of these models carry a label "Rough Wear Clothing Co., Middletown, PA."

I suspect that they have rationalised their range these days.

 

[greyhound52]

One more thing about Buzz Ricksons
I don't think they make a ROUGH WEAR with 'ROUGH WEAR' written on the label.
I think their RW labels read BUZZ RICKSON

Can anyone confirm?

They do make a Roughwear with Roughwear contract label the 23380 model. I have it. The BR label is their house version which is also very nice I have one of those as well.

 

[greyhound52]

Can someone explain this? From what I've seen, many(all?) have snaps with the BR name stamped in as if the fastener maker. I have also noted the labels of "Italian leather" on BR jackets. When I purchased a sofa 10 years ago, the benefit of Italian leather was touted as "there's no barbed wire in Italy." Since HH and goat is what we seek and not cowhide, what benefit is "Italian leather"? I know HPA has boasted about IL being the closest to the character of the real deal but they appear to have issues with allowing age to weather a jacket, so..... I can comment on the ELC 1933 Werber I've worn nonstop this past trip. Great jacket and feel but the time-worn treatment did nothing for the grain at all and I might have preferred aging thesurface by actual wear.
Okay, back on track. Having seen some of the funky Japanese variants, how can their jackets compete at all with GW for authenticity - especially at nearly twice the price?
Please educate me,
Dave
Kansas City,USA/Chipping Campden,UK

I think that as stated Goodwear has raised the bar on reproductions. Their lates Security Aviation Togs (1932) model sets them apart in the area of reproductions. So, at one time BR was the standard of what would be called unobtainable jackets. Now I look at my BR and compare it to the GW and there is no comparsion the GW is better.

 

[asiamiles]

Can someone explain this? From what I've seen, many(all?) have snaps with the BR name stamped in as if the fastener maker. I have also noted the labels of "Italian leather" on BR jackets. When I purchased a sofa 10 years ago, the benefit of Italian leather was touted as "there's no barbed wire in Italy." Since HH and goat is what we seek and not cowhide, what benefit is "Italian leather"? I know HPA has boasted about IL being the closest to the character of the real deal but they appear to have issues with allowing age to weather a jacket, so..... I can comment on the ELC 1933 Werber I've worn nonstop this past trip. Great jacket and feel but the time-worn treatment did nothing for the grain at all and I might have preferred aging thesurface by actual wear.
Okay, back on track. Having seen some of the funky Japanese variants, how can their jackets compete at all with GW for authenticity - especially at nearly twice the price?

Like Couchy, I paid less than half the price for my two BR A-2's (their non-issue SAT and a Dubow) than I would have to pay for a new GW and both are beautiful jackets. People now argue that they are lesser jackets because GW repro's are more accurate, but GW has just produced a jacket copied from photos and everyone is raving about it, including me. So if Buzz were now to obtain an original SAT A-2 and make a repro of it would that make GW's jackets suddenly inferior? Of course not. Companies such as Buzz, Goodwear, Real McCoy's, Toys McCoy, Eastman and others make great jackets; each tends to have their own character (just like the original makers of A-2's) and we can pick which we personally like best or is most suited to us as individuals, and those that can afford it can have some variety in their collections by having examples from the various makers.

 

[Weasel_Loader]

I had a Buzz RW A-2 and absolutely loved the hide on it. It aged very well and looked great. The only thing I didn't like on it was the large sleeve ends at the cuff knit. My GW Dubow that I first had and my current GW SAT has the tapered sleeve ends which I prefer.

When it comes to hides, I am not as picky as some and really can't see the big differences between all of them. I will always consider an A-2 from any of the top A-2 repro makers if it's used as there are great deals out there, but if I'm buying new, then GW is the only way for me.

 

[deeb7]

... Companies such as Buzz, Goodwear, Real McCoy's, Toys McCoy, Eastman and others make great jackets; each tends to have their own character (just like the original makers of A-2's) and we can pick which we personally like best or is most suited to us as individuals, and those that can afford it can have some variety in their collections by having examples from the various makers.

Well put, Miles ... I was a bit taken aback by the What's the big deal? in the title, and didn't quite know what to say.

I only have the one Buzz leather jacket, a B-3, and don't see any need to be chasing after a version from another maker. With the cloth/nylon jackets ... I have a few, and no one comes close to Toyo for the attention to detail over such a wide variety.

The only other issue is price ... with the BR label being priced in Yen for the domestic market, it's probably not the best time to be comparing, or buying in US Dollars. With the low USD, and GBP, for me it's a great time to buy, and for others, even more so ... eh, Couchy?

 

[CBI]

BR prices are so high. For the price of a BR A-2, one could purchase a MINT original or a good original and have it refurbished. It takes some time to search but possible. Why wear a copy with these prices?

The other high end repros are not cheap either but BR is OTT in my view - nice looking jackets as they are ........................

 

[asiamiles]

BR prices are so high. For the price of a BR A-2, one could purchase a MINT original or a good original and have it refurbished. It takes some time to search but possible. Why wear a copy with these prices?

The other high end repros are not cheap either but BR is OTT in my view - nice looking jackets as they are ........................

A BR A-2 is cheaper than one from The Real McCoy's, The Few and Toys McCoy. It's more expensive than a Goodwear due to the exchange rate...otherwise it would be comparable; you could buy an original for less than a Goodwear so you could ask the same question about them. The same probably applies to an Eastman as well. The answer? Some people prefer to have a new jacket rather than a 70-year old one.

 

[CBI]

for us in the US (via HPA) BR A-2's are $1,600 - thats A LOT more than a GW or ELC. If the others are the same or higher (Few, RM) then that's crazy. ELC pricing did not reach the $1,000 mark until the latest versions. Yes, one can get an original for ELC GW prices but the Japanese items are much higher - exchange rates are something we all have to deal with

 

[asiamiles]

for us in the US (via HPA) BR A-2's are $1,600 - thats A LOT more than a GW or ELC. If the others are the same or higher (Few, RM) then that's crazy. ELC pricing did not reach the $1,000 mark until the latest versions. Yes, one can get an original for ELC GW prices but the Japanese items are much higher - exchange rates are something we all have to deal with

BR A-2's haven't risen much, if at all, in price in Japan, but have gone up by several hundred dollars in the eyes of overseas customers due to the exchange rate. A house A-2 is ¥98,000 plus tax; a couple of years ago that would have been about $900, equivalent to the price of a GW and a Eastman. At today's exchange rate that's well in excess of $1,200. As you say, the exchange rate is something you/we have to deal with, not Buzz.

 

[Mundele]

I had a Buzz RW A-2 and absolutely loved the hide on it. It aged very well and looked great. The only thing I didn't like on it was the large sleeve ends at the cuff knit. My GW Dubow that I first had and my current GW SAT has the tapered sleeve ends which I prefer.

I'd never really noticed this aspect on my A2s.

After seeing your comment I checked my Buzz A2 and if anything the sleeves are MORE trim and tapered than my two Good Wears. Maybe they varied the cut?

 

[dmar836]

I guess my main issue would be the hardware being marked BR.
As for the Italian leather, if it is so ubiquitous, wouldn't it be fair to assume that many of today's makers use it - even makers of lower-end A-2s? Did U.S. contractors use Italian hides in the 40's? Does there exist a standard somewhere that proves those period U.S. hides were most comparable to today's Italian offerings?
I also have a problem with claims of "proper" in comparison with something that is now 65 - 70 yrs old. Vets don't remember such nuances so how could I trust a modern maker? Because they have studied so many original examples? ELC "had the perfect hides" back in the 90's so why would they have changed hides several times if they were so convinced of the quality back then? Only those surviving examples in pristine shape can be assessed and even those might have changed with age. I'm beginning to wonder the same of knits etc. Could there be color variations because of the types of wool dyes used in the 30s and 40s? There are materials like paint pigments, lucite, and bakalite that are known to have aged and degraded regardless of how well they were kept.
JMO,
Dave

 

[ausreenactor]

The makers are simply producing what buyers have moved to, with regard to preferences etc. I held the opinion that a $1000 repro jacket should be simlar to what a General would have been presented. Nice matched smooth hide. I have a few like this, and rarely worn, I have learned that the grain adds character. Since children arrived in my house, and their AO has increased, I have had to shed my OCD of perfect is the only option. I am used to odd sprinkle sticking to my foot, the handprints on the mirrors and I love a grainy jacket now. Thanks kids! There was a time when Billy Ray Cyrus was cool. We progress, and thanks to options from GW, BR, the FEW, ELC, AERO and others, there is variety in our lives. Albeit in the same wardrobe we look in everyday, the same house we leave and return to day in & day out! Like I said early on. Horses for courses!! Basically A-2 contracts come down to hide, pattern, label. It takes a lot to get every detail right. Some do, many don't. You could say "How accurate do you want to spend?" Not correct grammar, I know...

Couchy