An idea for a WWII-approximate M422a/civilian wearer...

[BigBrother]

So a bit of background first: I do a lot of WWII reenactment, go to dances for such, etc. and have been loving the collection aspect. I've also found, no big surprise, that A2s and G1s are phenomenal for walk around jackets, especially as I love 30s and 40s casual looks. It's one reason I actually keep mine unadorned without patches, etc. Pull double duty .

When it comes to an M422a/G1/USN jacket, I had settled on finding an early 70s Star Sportswear, in goat, with Dynal collar in 38R. Might seem a bit of an odd choice, but I can explain each part:

- G1 as opposed to M422a: cost and fit. I'm not into it enough yet/have the means to get super accurate, so 90% of the way there is enough for me for now. Also the G1s fit me amazingly well and I know the M422as are longer and larger.
- Not going with FiveStar: don't want to start any holy wars here , but I haven't been impressed thus far with what I've been seeing, and the thought of commissioning a custom job, waiting, potentially being disappointed in any number of ways, having to either tweak or being stuck with it, etc. all sound horrible. Not interested.
- Star Sportswear: these are the ones I keep coming across in vintage stores and in 38R they are a dream fit. Just haven't found one in good enough condition and with the Dynal collar. Why on Earth would I want that, you might ask?...
- Dynal collar: unlike probably the vast majority of others on here, I actually quite prefer the very dark brown fur to the lighter shades the Mouton becomes. I did find exactly the jacket described but in Mouton. It had a reddish brown hue most on here would probably love. But it just wasn't for me. Once I researched and found all Mouton lightens like that, it was Dynal for me. Plus it gives more of a just-issued look for a young pilot and is also what you see the Tigers wearing in one or two shots, so could fit for that sort of impression as well.
- Goat: self-explanatory. I bring it up here because I was disappointed to find an E-series recently (see my previous topic) in cowhide.

So with all that said, that's what I've had my sights trained on.

Well, the best laid plans of mice and men...

Yesterday I came across a little-known (to me at least!) repro that may actually fit the bill better than all this: a Wills and Geiger G1 in 38R:

Other than the collar shade, which I might be willing to compromise on, this might be better overall:

- Collar is much closer to the correct shape for WWII issue
- Some of the other details look closer to correct
- I wouldn't feel bad potentially cutting out the wind flap for authenticity, where I'd never dream of doing so with a real military jacket
- I was even considering having my tailor put in pen-pocket stitching on the left pocket

Just vocalizing all this to see what the community thinks, hear feedback, get ideas, you know, share all this. Thanks all!

 

[B-Man2]

Hi
Sorry to be the one who responds, as I think you might like hearing from someone else, however, I’ll offer you my opinion. In your other post you mentioned that the financial outlay for a top tier jacket might be excessive and you’d rather look for a cheaper option right ? Well let’s take a look at this idea you just posted. I’ll be brief.
W&G G-1 repro ……… $200-$300
Cost of customizing pocket ….$0- $50.00
Cutting off wind flap and having the jacket altered so it doesn’t look chopped up $25-50.
Possible total cost $400.
Future cash return when you upgrade and sell this jacket . $75-100. With damaged wind flap and sewn in pencil holder .
No one wants a customized military repro.
You’d be better off investing a little more and getting exactly what you want or waiting and bidding your time until what you want shows up at a good price .
Most of us here have including myself have been where you are and have gone thru a number of jackets and with it, a pocket full of cash . So there you are … one persons opinion . Hopefully others will follow .
Good luck with your search .

 

[BigBrother]

For starters, I welcome your opinion! You've been very helpful and I do appreciate all the input.

1. Cutting I'd do myself and the stitching she wouldn't charge me more than $15 for probably.
2. Resale value is not a big concern at the moment. I have $3000-$4000 of vintage and militaria I'm sitting on, a mountain verily, that I need to resell, and whatever I buy here wouldn't be slated for anything like that in the near future or ever.
3. But let's talk higher price points. With an A2 there's a very clear path for me personally from the lower hundreds range to the upper. With a USN jacket, I don't quite see such a path. I'll of course explain... an original makes no sense as the condition would be poorer, I don't know that I'd feel great wearing it out, and the fit is looser. The higher-end repro makers just don't seem to make anything I'm interested in. I've looked at their sites and all their USN stuff just looks so plastic-y and too clean. They don't read right at all to me, yet the A2s definitely do. The only USN jackets that click right for me are the post-war G1s. So really, if I were to take your advice and invest... I'm not sure in what it would be! Unless, of course, I'm missing something...

 

[B-Man2]

For starters, I welcome your opinion! You've been very helpful and I do appreciate all the input.

1. Cutting I'd do myself and the stitching she wouldn't charge me more than $15 for probably.
2. Resale value is not a big concern at the moment. I have $3000-$4000 of vintage and militaria I'm sitting on, a mountain verily, that I need to resell, and whatever I buy here wouldn't be slated for anything like that in the near future or ever.
3. But let's talk higher price points. With an A2 there's a very clear path for me personally from the lower hundreds range to the upper. With a USN jacket, I don't quite see such a path. I'll of course explain... originals make no sense as the condition would be poorer, I don't know that I'd feel great wearing it out, and the fit is looser. The higher-end repro makers just don't seem to make anything I'm interested in. I've looked at their sites and all their USN stuff just looks so plastic-y and too clean. They don't read right at all to me, yet the A2s definitely do. The only USN jackets that click right for me are the post-war G1s. So really, if I were to take your advice and invest... I'm not sure in what it would be! Unless, of course, I'm missing something...

If G-1s are to your liking and fit you exactly the way you like them to, then that’s great. But why try to restyle the jacket? Most people can’t tell a G-1 , from an M-422 to an M-422A to an ANJ3 . Some re-e actors may pick up on the difference but you said in your recent posts that accuracy wasn’t a major factor. So why go thru the customization thing ? If accuracy is now important and you’ve rethought it all then take a look at the AVI repro M-422A out of Denmark . There’s a great review here by Brettafett on them and others with a lot of collecting experience are really going for them big time . The cost is about $290.00
Anyway just sharing some ideas with you .
Let’s hear what others think and then you can evaluate all opinions .

 

[BigBrother]

Cool, I too of course want to hear others chime in. In the meantime, just to address two of the points

1. It's basically like a matrix of considerations. I want to be as accurate as possible while still A) liking how it looks, B) relatedly, being able to wear it outside of reenactment, C) not breaking the bank, and D) not ruining anything of historical value. So for me, slicing off a wind flap on a repro gets me closer to accurate without hurting the other factors. Also it's a matter of visibility. No serious collector will mistake any of the above for real ones, but a wind flap to me reads so wrong. So chopping that off will create a much better overall look at the events. Of course, let's totally be honest- no one knows or gives a crap outside of two people at any of these events. But man, getting it close feels good!

2. I just looked up Brettafett's post. I believe I'd seen it before. I hate to say it, but that is exactly what I was talking about above. It just looks so plastic-y and smooth and inaccurate to me. To my eye it doesn't read at all like anything military or military issue, even new. Those Nam G1s have "the look". Real WWII ones have "the look". Good repro A2s have "the look". But somehow when it comes to repro USN, they all just look like tacky car upholstery vinyl to me. <Shrug>. I'm sure he likes it and it's no absolute judgment on my part, just my own personal taste.

EDIT- Wait, I just looked at his post again. Maybe they did originally have wind flaps and that point would then be moot! EDIT 2- Yep, they did. Man, that W-G above is looking a lot more appetizing. I think it really reads right (given all the factors discussed).

 

[Southoftheborder]

I always found the wind flaps to be a pain because they pull the front down and make it lopsided front to back. They also don't bend very well when you sit down and the bottom can stick into you in delicate places if the jacket is on the long side.

I don't have any ex issue originals or high end repros USN jackets anymore but I do have a civilian type one loosely based on a G-1 without a wind flap, which fits like an ANJ -3 but with the mouton collar, and that is very comfortable. And I have an Eastman Air Comfort which is also a very comfortable jacket and which I like very much but is slightly ruined by a wind flap.

Don't know why Eastman put that on it since it's supposed to be based on a post war utility so called 'bomber jacket' and I have never seen one of those with a wind flap. And I've owned a lot of original post war ones over many years.

 

[Silver Surfer]

If it’s a good fit, and price, Get the w&g jacket, and call it a day. After all w&g did make originals during wwll.

 

[Grant]

Hey Brother,
Assuming you live in the US, check out vintage clothing stores and flea markets in your area. It's still possible to come across decent USN jackets in good condition for not a lot of dough and the thrill of the hunt is much cooler than clicking online. If you don't see what you're looking for, put the word out with vintage dealers and they might surprise you.

BTW, good call not going the 5* or AVI route - cutting corners to make a cheap WWII USN jacket is like asking Hyundai to make a Mercedes.

 

[BigBrother]

Hey Brother,
Assuming you live in the US, check out vintage clothing stores and flea markets in your area. It's still possible to come across decent USN jackets in good condition for not a lot of dough and the thrill of the hunt is much cooler than clicking online. If you don't see what you're looking for, put the word out with vintage dealers and they might surprise you.

BTW, good call not going the 5* or AVI route - cutting corners to make a cheap WWII USN jacket is like asking Hyundai to make a Mercedes.

Yeah, the Star Sportswear mentioned up top is one of my #1 local vintage targets!

 

[Chandler]

Of course, if you're reenacting, wouldn't you also have to kit out in the proper uniform to match the service of the jacket you want?

And just my opinion, but the W&G collar looks wrong -- too big and weird nap, but if you're not worried about super-authenticity, it's probably a solid jacket.

 

[coolhandluke]

The higher-end repro makers just don't seem to make anything I'm interested in. I've looked at their sites and all their USN stuff just looks so plastic-y and too clean. They don't read right at all to me, yet the A2s definitely do. The only USN jackets that click right for me are the post-war G1s. So really, if I were to take your advice and invest... I'm not sure in what it would be! Unless, of course, I'm missing something...

IMO, there are only two manufacturers that do USN jackets right...Dave Sheeley and John Chapman. Neither are cheap ($1600 - $1900) and there are 6 month - 2 year wait times involved.

If you like the Star G1's, and the USN punched windflap, collar and pocket shape don't bother you. Buy whatever you find and have Steve Sellers replace the dynal with some dark mutton. I doubt that it will lighten in color as quickly as you are expecting.

I agree that that Avi's hide doesn't look at all like the hide used on USN jackets, but it's on par with pretty much every other repro USN jacket maker's jackets that are twice the price. I prefer 5*'s goat as it looks more authentic, but their USN patterns look like a hot mess. Shoulder widths are too wide for chest measurements, torsos too short and tight, oversized sleeves, etc. At least Avi's Gordon & Ferguson M-422A pattern is more correct looking and pleasing to look at. If it had slightly thicker leather with more character and wool knits, it would be the perfect sub-$1000 USN jacket.

 

[coolhandluke]

BTW, with a little bit of work you can make an Avi a little more authentic looking. Here's mine after water treatment to make the grain pop and a few upgrades (ignore the missing size tag). It hasn't even had the piss worn out of it yet as Burt would say...

 

[Deacon211]

Have you considered the Cockpit 100 mission line? @Brettafett did a review on his and I have had one for years and really like it.

The cut and fit is as good as any G-1 I was ever issued and the leather, while heavy has a great grain and weathering (worn in but not like it had been pulled from a crash).

If you contact the Cockpit directly, they will substitute a different collar than the blonde one that it comes with. You could even go with Dynel, but truly my real wool collars have never faded…I just think the dyes are more colorfast these days.

If you’re looking for a more modern issue, I’d suggest the Cooper. It was the first jacket that I was issued and it is in fact goat.

BTW, I’m glad that you abandoned cutting off the windflap. It’s part of the look and I don’t think it would look like an m-422/G-1 without it.

Here’s the Cooper (bought off eBay after I outgrew my original G-1), and the Cockpit:

 

[tda003]

Just as an interesting note: W-G had the original contract for the M-422A. I don't think they had another contract for them after that.

 

[BigBrother]

Very cool! I did just see a W&G AN-J-3A or (what's the designation? Something 556 or 665) and it made me think of their own history and provenance. In any case, I purchased it in part because the seller agreed to let me return it if it's not a match. Can't wait!!

 

[Grant]

Right, W&G had other contracts before and after the M422A including the pre-war M422.

 

[mulceber]

Grant's right, they didn't just make the M-422A:

• 2 M-422 contracts - N156s16957 & S-74892
• 3 M-422A contracts - 85956, N Xs-290 & 290A
• test contract(s?) for the aborted AN-J-3
• 2 AN-6552 contracts - N288s28628 & N288s32357
• 1 AN-J-3A contract - N288s-35805