A-2 to AN-J-3A Conversion (skips the AN-J-3)

[mulceber]

could the contract of AN-J-3s have been ordered and made and then not issued because of the cloth replacements? (and instead, distributed informally tag less or sold via private purchase?)

Seems possible. I still lean toward the test jacket hypothesis, since I think that's the simplest explanation, but I could see this being the case as well.

Do we have ideas as to who made the tagless AN-J-3s?

The one I know is Willis & Geiger. My impression is that it isn't hard to figure out who made these jackets, even without the tag, because most of them were navy contractors who were just adapting the pattern they'd already been using for the M-422A.

 

[33-1729]

I think the simplest solution is would you prefer the cloth B-10 they’re issuing in your cockpit or a flame resistant [civilian] leather jacket?

Leather also looks cool when all your friends have A-2’s.

 

[mulceber]

Trust me, you would prefer the B-10. By all accounts, the B-10s (and B-15s, B-15As, etc.) were popular with the pilots. If fire is a consideration, you're already in significant trouble, and leather doesn't do that much to protect you from fire. A far greater consideration for pilots and for the AAF was warmth, as none of these planes were pressurized. What looks cool was not a consideration, even for the troops. Chuck Yeager, who had been issued an A-2 (Monarch) quipped that he eventually got one of the later flight jackets because the A-2 wasn't warm enough.

 

[Chandler]

What looks cool was not a consideration, even for the troops.

I have to disagree to a certain extent. Sure, frontline troops didn't give a damn about "looking cool" while doing their best to survive, but look at how Airborne and Ranger troops took to flight jackets and jump boots. They knew how these made them look (even if cool wasn't a thing at the time).

I'll also point out a couple Mauldin cartoons where he points out the rear echelon wanting "elite" gear to make them "look the part." The first is the paratrooper not saluting officers because he wants to know where they got their jump boots. The other shows rear echelon members lining up to buy pilot gear to, again, look the part.

And yeah, just 'cause you *look* cool...

 

[mulceber]

That's fair, and I probably over-stated my position. People everywhere are interested in looking cool. But we do know that the B-series jackets were welcomed among the pilots precisely because they fixed the warmth problem.

 

[Chandler]

But we do know that the B-series jackets were welcomed among the pilots precisely because they fixed the warmth problem.

Most certainly, just like scrounging for the Winter Combat Jacket to wear in a fighter cockpit. But I bet good money they hung on to their A-2s for off duty wear.

 

[mulceber]

Definitely, as evidenced by our friend Chuck, who still had his A-2 when he broke the sound barrier, iirc. I'm sure it was also a status symbol: "I'm not some schlub who just got out of pilot training - I've been here since the first year of US involvement in the war."

That being said, I think we've seen enough evidence so far, especially the AN-J-3 Mikey mentioned Grant has with the AN inspection stamp, to conclude that the AN-J-3 started as a jacket the government was exploring as a replacement for the A-2. How far they got (test jacket? Limited prototype that was issued to a few people?) is anyone's guess. There were probably some civi versions that entered circulation as well through private purchase, but trying to suggest that there were no government versions at this point seems to be forcing the evidence to fit the argument, instead of the other way around.

 

[33-1729]

I totally get that about the later jackets. My father gave me his MA-1 that he wore in Korea and Viet-Nam when the zipper broke and I wore it until it disintegrated, because it was comfortable through three of four seasons and had pockets for everything I needed.

On the Australian Air Force getting leather flight jackets, dinomartino1 posted a link where the Australian military said it had to be as flame-resistant as Nomex to be considered for use and goatskin worked just as well so they got their leather flight jacket issued. Thinking of the wings full of fuel and bombs underneath fire safety is a big concern. No doubt.

The AN-J-3 test jacket theory doesn't match the documentation we've seen for other jackets, but it's as good as any theory until we have data to prove what really happened.

 

[MikeyB-17]

That being said, I think we've seen enough evidence so far, especially the AN-J-3 Mikey mentioned Grant has with the AN inspection stamp

I don’t believe he still has it. I could also be wrong, as I said, it was a very long time ago, pre- this forum. I vaguely remember a certain member insinuating that the AAF stamp was faked.
I do remember somebody saying they’d met Yeager, whilst wearing an A-2, and when asked if he remembered them, he said they were too cold and preferred the cloth jackets.

 

[mulceber]

I don’t believe he still has it. I could also be wrong, as I said, it was a very long time ago, pre- this forum. I vaguely remember a certain member insinuating that the AAF stamp was faked.

Really? Because Grant just posted a fresh pic of him wearing an AN-J-3 a couple days ago. Is it not the same one?

Also, I just checked JC's Flight Jacket CD, and saw this:

Looks like JC has seen the same or a similar jacket.

 

[MikeyB-17]

Really? Because Grant just posted a fresh pic of him wearing an AN-J-3 a couple days ago. Is it not the same one?

Also, I just checked JC's Flight Jacket CD, and saw this:
View attachment 56068
Looks like JC has seen the same or a similar jacket.

This was donkey’s years ago. I think it probably is the same jacket.

 

[foster]

I think the simplest solution is would you prefer the cloth B-10 they’re issuing in your cockpit or a flame resistant [civilian] leather jacket?

Not sure the flame resistant aspect is a big consideration when the parachute harness worn over the jacket was made from flammable cotton. So maybe you survive the fire, but then you're without a parachute to bail out with.

If I continue down my speculative thoughts, consider that the A-2 design was (if I put it bluntly) a weird garment from the manufacturing standpoint. The USN flight jackets, by comparison, were more comfortable and functional. Despite being more complex in design, the USN ones IMHO are superior to the A-2 pattern. It is possible that some contractors making USN flight jackets were interested in obtaining contracts for the USAAF when the AN (Army/Navy) attempted to standardize the two. "Look, this is a better design, and we already know how to make these, here have some samples of this jacket without a fur collar and with the front windflap". Probably no label in them other than a manufacturer's label (if this is remotely similar to what actually happened).

 

[33-1729]

Really? Because Grant just posted a fresh pic of him wearing an AN-J-3 a couple days ago. Is it not the same one?

Also, I just checked JC's Flight Jacket CD, and saw this:
View attachment 56068
Looks like JC has seen the same or a similar jacket.

Good find!

If one of the jackets had an AN Inspection stamp then the contract had to be large enough to require batch quality control sampling. I know the general consensus is that the leather collar jacket is an AN-J-3 versus the latter mouton collar AN-J-3A, but that is pure speculation. With the presence of an AN Inspection stamp a contract would exist and it is quite possible the leather collar jacket has a completely different identification number than the one assumed. That would explain why an AN-J-3 contract hasn’t been located as that particular leather collar jacket was really called something else when the government contract was made.

I also contacted the museum with the leather collar jacket Chandler posted in #18 and asked for photos of the inside. I’ll post whatever they send.

 

[Chandler]

Really? Because Grant just posted a fresh pic of him wearing an AN-J-3 a couple days ago. Is it not the same one?

Why has no one prompted the man?

@Grant , what sez you?

 

[33-1729]

Okay, I appear to be wrong and there's a contract out there somewhere (under who knows what). The AN-J-3 has a leather collar and the AN-J-3A has a Mouton collar.

On page 119 in the book by C.G. Sweeting United States Army Aviators' Clothing, 1917-1945 he notes

"...The Spec. AN-J-3 intermediate flying jacket was standardized on April 27, 1943, and was used in limited quantities by both the Army and Navy during the latter half of the war. Quite similar to the A-2 jacket, the AN-J-3 was made of brown leather, including the collar, had knitted cuffs and waist band, and a zipper-fly front..."

And on page 122 shows the Smithsonian Institution reference picture below. . .

The military might have removed the AN-J-3 labels to avoid confusion with the Mouton collared AN-J-3A (and to stop people from trying to get one). Certainly not a test jacket, but normal issue.

Ref.: https://www.worldhistory.biz/download567/UnitedStatesArmyAviatorsClothing, 1917-1945_worldhistory.biz.pdf

 

[mulceber]

Wow, @33-1729, that's a great find! I guess we were both wrong. Sounds from what you're saying like it was an issued jacket, but in small enough numbers and for a short enough time that a lot of the paper trail for it has mostly stayed off the radar.

It also looks like that one's made by a different company than mine, as the collar is noticeably smaller.

 

[Chandler]

The AN-J-3 has a leather collar and the AN-J-3A has a Mouton collar.

I had thought this was the case -- guess I read it in Sweeting.

View attachment 56082

And this is the image I mentioned earlier -- note the M422-like wind flap and interior pocket. I had Flight Suits make me an "ersatz" AN many years ago -- but nothing special, just their modern G-1 sans mouton.

 

[mulceber]

Yeah, it looks like this is the version of the jacket that Aero offers repros of.

 

[Chandler]

@bfrench used to have a Gibson & Barnes AN he had them make, wonder if he still has it?

Scroll down to post #11

GB goatskin Historical A-2

Grabbed some shots of my older Gibson & Barnes goatskin size 44. Not sure on the age of this one, another E-Bay purchase. I'm pretty sure this was manufactured right when Flight Suits first started using the Gibson & Barnes moniker, but before they started with signifying years as their...

www.vintageleatherjackets.org

 

[MikeyB-17]

There is also a version with an A-2 style windflap and epaulettes-see this thread from 2019.

AN-j-3: epaulettes or no?

Hey gang, I need a little more clarification on a proper AN-J-3. I’ve been doing some research into them and it seems one, the J3, is basically a G-1 with a leather collar. The other version had more of the features of an A-2. And that is where the confusion comes in. I was basically wanting to...

www.vintageleatherjackets.org