A-2 Govt Supplied Materials Question

[Mac]

It seems to be fairly well accepted that the US government provided the various A-2 manufacturers with materials such as hides, hardware, etc.

If the govt supplied the materials, how did specific manufacturers' jackets exhibit certain characteristics. For example, why did Aero seem to be the only manufacturer to receive the now classic rust/red knits or Dubow the purplish brown knits. Did some procurement officer decide all rust knits to Beacon, NY? Likewise, why are some manufacturers now known for specific hardward? Certain zips, etc.

Obviously, it's not difficult to see how certain brands have characterisitic design features given patterns at each shop and perhaps a steady workforce of cutters and seamstresses. But materials? Perhaps another question that will be answered by Gary in his book.

Mac

 

[Jeff M]

Is that correct? Did the US Gov't supply the hides/knits/hardware to the manufacturers...or did they specify what materials were to be used and leave it to the manufacturers to get the materials themselves?
Seems like the US Govt. already had enough on it's hands fighting the war to have to worry about finding/purchasing/delivering hides and zippers to jacket makers.

 

[Anonymous]

Most likely the govt specified only and manufacturers did their job.
I understand the specs included a simple drawing with dimensions which is why the many different patterns.

 

[Mac]

Maybe Roughwear (Andrew) can chime in. In the thread on Gary's new book, Roughwear notes that "the US War Dept. sourced all the hardware and leather for every A2 contract." So, were procurement agents supplying materials to manufacturers? If so, why certain materials (rust knits or specfic hardward) to certain manufacturers?

 

[Jeff M]

I would question the way the term "sourced" is used in the book.
I have a very hard time believing the US Govt. was out there purchasing leather and zippers for jackets. Very inefficient.
I can see them specifying materials that meet certain criteria...ie, leather thickness, allowable hides, etc...but not actually running around trying to find them/select the hides, knits, zippers/purchase them and get them to the manufacturers.
Then there is this comment posted on another thread currently running about re; steerhide use in A2's. It's from a discussion over at the old Yahoo discussion group;

"I had a fascinating conversation yesterday with a
woman who worked at the old Aero factory in Beacon, NY
during the war. I asked her if they used only horsehide.
She said they used whatever hides they could get
their hands on, including cow, horse and sheepskins. As
she put it, "there was a war on, so we used whatever
we could get our hands on".<br><br>Grant"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintagele ... essage/931

She doesn't say "we used whatever the government sent us", but rather "whatever we could get our hands on".

 

[Roughwear]

All the leather, hardware, lining and knits were sourced by government agents, not by the makers. They used a variety of suppliers which would account for the variation in leather, colour of lining, knits and zips. They only had to meet the specifications, which they did. In addition each A2 maker had their own house style. Gary reproduces documents from tanneries who were keen to supply the government with leather for A2s.

 

[Jeff M]

All the leather, hardware, lining and knits were sourced by government agents, not by the makers. They used a variety of suppliers which would account for the variation in leather, colour of lining, knits and zips. They only had to meet the specifications, which they did. In addition each A2 maker had their own house style. Gary reproduces documents from tanneries who were keen to supply the government with leather for A2s.

When you say "sourced", does that mean the US government said to the manufacturers "we want you to purchase your material from these companies that we have selected", or "we have a warehouse full of leather/knits/zippers that we have already purchased and our truck will be pulling up to deliver it to you next week"?

 

[Roughwear]

My understanding is that the materials etc.. were all procured by the government and shipped to the A2 makers, with the government paying the suppliers. It was a well organised supply system.

 

[Persimmon]

My understanding is that the materials etc.. were all procured by the government and shipped to the A2 makers, with the government paying the suppliers. It was a well organised supply system.

I guess that does beg the question of how come only the red knits went to Aero.

 

[Roughwear]

This is not quite true as some original Dubows have the same shade of berry knits. Why Aero had large quantities of berry knits supplied to them is an interesting question which is not answered in Gary's book.

 

[Dr H]

My understanding is that the materials etc.. were all procured by the government and shipped to the A2 makers, with the government paying the suppliers. It was a well organised supply system.

I guess that does beg the question of how come only the red knits went to Aero.

Perhaps they asked first...and nicely

 

[Jeff M]

My understanding is that the materials etc.. were all procured by the government and shipped to the A2 makers, with the government paying the suppliers. It was a well organised supply system.

That surprises me. Can't see how that would be effective.
And it does indeed raise the question why Aero got to use the red knits. :shock:

 

[Roughwear]

Gary is quite specific about the contracting process with potential jacket makers and the suppliers of the materials. There were separate government contracts for the jackets and the materials organised by AAF Material Command. It was an effective system, well organised as it was not reliant on each maker to procure the materials needed to make A2s and therefore economies of scale could be achieved with material contracts awarded centrally.

 

[Persimmon]

My understanding is that the materials etc.. were all procured by the government and shipped to the A2 makers, with the government paying the suppliers. It was a well organised supply system.

That surprises me. Can't see how that would be effective.
And it does indeed raise the question why Aero got to use the red knits. :shock:

I would have thought it more reasonable that these factories had ongoing suppliers supplying them with buttons, zips, lining, leather etc etc prior the war / prior to war time contracts for their ranges of products and knowing there factory capabilities re plant., machinery and labor force the management pitched for the contract.
Once pitched and accepted they just collected the necessary items from their already ongoing suppliers and took what they had to offer.
Maybe aero had the exclusive source for reddish knits and took all the stock and that left all other companies with the more plain / manly colours...

Andrew I saw your latest post after posting. So how can the red knits be explained.

 

[Roughwear]

So how can the red knits be explained.

The spec was for the wool to be dyed to a colour shade called "Chelsea Brown", but this was interpreted in a variety of shades by the suppliers of knits. I would imagine one of the firms contracted to supply Aero simply dyed their knits a rust colour and as Aero had such large contracts almost exclusively supplied them. Clearly more research is needed here.

 

[ausreenactor]

My understanding is that the materials etc.. were all procured by the government and shipped to the A2 makers, with the government paying the suppliers. It was a well organised supply system.

I guess that does beg the question of how come only the red knits went to Aero.

A local council in Australia put out a tender for engineers to repave a section of road in the outback. The task was completed. THEN the council went nuts as the newly resurfaced road was a bright red! It was not stipulated in the contract as to the exact colour the bitumen had to be. Maybe a contractor moving easily dyed items in the early days?

Couchy

 

[CBI]

JC's (Good Wear) homework is the same. The Gov. supplied the materials to the manufactures and then they built the jackets.

Red Aero knits. The theory there is that the color was a mistake but knits made in such a large supply, they used them anyway (as per JC).

 

[buzzthetower]

Here's my impression, and a few facts.

There is, and was at the time, a federal list of items for anything related to government purchased parts (remember, anything, all the way to toilet seats). I have the gov't spec on the 55J14 G-1 jacket, and every single part of the jacket has a gov't number, or a Navy number, or both. Even the stitching type has a gov't number. I'm not joking. A lock stitch is given a number like V22-LS-1448. And a diagram comes in a massive binder with graphics of every stitch design, and the machine to do it with and the thread type (numbered and described) and the official gov't number of stitches per inch.

So, any part going into any item bought by the gov't has a spec number, design, and dimensions. For the A-2 jackets, the knits would have a fed or AAF number, and then a diagram that shows the type of wool, the exact number of wales per inch, the exact number of courses per inch, and the exact size of height and width of the waistband, the cuffs, how to cut them, what each different jacket size would require, etc...

To make any of these items, one has to pitch for the contract. Yes, that means Talon, knit makers, snap makers, cotton lining makers, thread makers, and even jacket makers all had to bid on a contract. The winning bidder would receive their federal or AAF spec sheet and produce the item needed for the contract, under contract, and would have to have their item inspected by an AAF or federal inspector.

Even the leather had very tight specs. It had to be a certain grade, and certain thickness. I spoke with Mituhito Aota (author of Full Gear) in person, and though he didn't have it on hand, he owns both the Fed spec and AAF spec for leather during WWII, which gave a certain range of thickness and type of finish for leather used in flight garments.

So, the point is, do you think any company making jackets would be trusted to "find" the right parts according to a federal or AAF spec sheet, if that spec sheet had to be adhered to, for the right price, from a company that was trusted by the gov't, and delivered on time? No. The AAF covered it's own ass by purchasing all the parts. No officers got in trouble if they did all the right bidding and purchasing. Companies could get in trouble, but not the officers managing the deals (but I bet there was corruption to some degree).

Now, for the Aero knits. The world was much smaller at this time, and I'm guessing that some of the contract material was done on a more local scale. So, a company like Aero would win a bid for jackets. The officer would look for New York area parts as much as possible, and I would guess that there were a number of knitting mills in the New York area. Find a few, let them bid, and the winning bidder did the work. They screw up the color (massively...it was the "wrong" color by all counts), and the officer decides, with that volume, that it's not worth it to do a second run, as they would loose time on delivery. They scold the company and maybe even take a lower price per unit, but take them.

I'm not saying that happened, but in the pressure they were under, it could have happened that way. Obviously, when it comes to leather color, A-2 jackets are all over the place, from light brown to almost black. The leather wasn't rejected, but I'm sure a few officers were disappointed with the colors chosen. But would they reject leather in hand? No. Just use it.

In the 1940s, in the USA, there were many tanneries in each city. So, I would venture to guess that some contracts were fulfilled through several tanneries, not just one. For Aero, they may have had 1-5 tanneries making the hides for the 21996 contract, as an example. We see one that's russet, and another that's seal, and wonder what on Earth happened. Simple - different color managers at the tannery had differing ideas of what brown should be. Every tannery had different chemicals and methods of tanning (just like chicken can be cooked in every different manner imaginable), so the leather from one tannery would be stiff and grainy, and another tannery would have thin and flat leather.

Same with the linings - some companies used tan, others a dry dirt color, and others dull orange. Was any color wrong? Probably not, but they sure were different. Lowest bidder does the work.

I have USN knits from WWII, probably replacement units, and even the knits came in a box with the contract number, date, contractor, and other federal numbers on it. The zippers had very strict federal design specs - no jacket maker would be trusted to find that stuff on their own. It's the same way today with military purchasing, and it keeps the buyer safe in getting what they asked for (except for those red knits).

That's why the price per jacket only covers the company assembling the jackets, not the parts.

Also, Charles DiSipio posted a number of contract details years ago on an older forum, and one covered a 1935 request for A-2 jackets. The spec for the lining was cotton, not silk, so by that point, cotton was the demanded material. And some of the papers he found covered tanneries asking to bid on cowhide leather for aviator jackets. One of the failed bidders for an A-2 contract was Ideal Sportswear, and the process was that they would submit their bid, and be given a jacket from the AAC to make a test copy of. This may explain why some jacket maker designs are similar to others. A crude drawing was giving of the jacket design, but a physical jacket would be sent to copy. Maybe Perry got a Werber or a Rough Wear, or Dubow got an earlier Aero - who knows, but each company would get a chance to make one copy.

I hope that helps.

John

 

[Jeff M]

Great information John. Thanks!

 

[Clyde from Carolina]

Great information John. Thanks!

+1. But we must all be absolutely deranged to find this level of detail so fascinating! (My wife was right all along.)