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A-1 contract with lay-down knit collar
- Thread starter zoomer
- Start date
zoomer
Well-Known Member
Mine (ELC, LW, W&G) all tend to ride up in back, which John's (and Woodring's) don't.
Also, there is a definite angle to the collar in Woodring's pic. It doesn't just keep going straight up from the front seam. Looks like it would have a particularly good overlap when fastened, which is very practical.
Also, there is a definite angle to the collar in Woodring's pic. It doesn't just keep going straight up from the front seam. Looks like it would have a particularly good overlap when fastened, which is very practical.
Dr H
Well-Known Member
For me, if the cape is good and the pattern is truly A-1 rather than an 'A-2 with buttons' then the treatment of the collar differentiates repros in the upper echelons.
I'll photograph my knit collar turned up. The depth of the knit varies in the same manner as the Suit Up example (and is quite generous at the back) so can lay flat but with a pronounced roll. This is something that John has done since his very earliest A-1 jackets, although the knit is deeper now and the curve of the edge towards the button loop more pronounced (I sound like Jeff and his Roughwear 'swoop'!).
The angle that the knit makes does allow for the overlap but isn't as acute as the period image.
The GW A-1 has the more complex knit profile, but for all the high points in the ELC pattern (and it does come close to the original depicted in Gary's book where the shallow depth of the front knit is visible), the collar lets it down. I've discussed this with John via Vickie recently and it's a very time consuming part of the job with lots of adjustment, but skimp on the depth at the back and put a simple band collar on and the result is poor placement when folded. The knit simply doesn't roll flat.
I'll photograph my knit collar turned up. The depth of the knit varies in the same manner as the Suit Up example (and is quite generous at the back) so can lay flat but with a pronounced roll. This is something that John has done since his very earliest A-1 jackets, although the knit is deeper now and the curve of the edge towards the button loop more pronounced (I sound like Jeff and his Roughwear 'swoop'!).
The angle that the knit makes does allow for the overlap but isn't as acute as the period image.
The GW A-1 has the more complex knit profile, but for all the high points in the ELC pattern (and it does come close to the original depicted in Gary's book where the shallow depth of the front knit is visible), the collar lets it down. I've discussed this with John via Vickie recently and it's a very time consuming part of the job with lots of adjustment, but skimp on the depth at the back and put a simple band collar on and the result is poor placement when folded. The knit simply doesn't roll flat.
My personal opinion on the matter is that the more modern pics we see (of A1s) tend to have collars that stand up on their own because the knits are still fresh and new (and possibly thicker) and therefor have more body to them. That and people like that these jackets look good with a popped collar (more natural than an A2 with it's collar up) - and so that's what gets presented a lot in photographs. Wear them a little, get caught in a rain shower or two... clock some hours in an open cockpit and they tend to relax and are easier about laying flat. I've noticed too (and you can see it in Woodring's pic) that on these vintage pictures of A1's, the cuff knits are also well stretched and are never quite as snug as we see on modern jackets. Look also at how worn in the leather on Woodring's jacket is, it's really had time to developed it's own character beyond the pattern. Woodring's jacket would probably not look quite as good with his bigger collar popped up either JMHO. Then there's the possibility that some pilots would take it upon themselves to manually stretch out their knits so they'd lay more to their liking or so the collar button and loop would function better. It wasn't as "cool" to wear a collar up way back then, was just a way to keep the neck warm - Fonzy from Happy Days wouldn't be along for a while to make it hip 
. There IS something to the shaping of the color before installation though.. I have been installing mine with the widest part in the back and curve the end to be, less wide. I prefer the look that gives. I think the look of the collar on the pictured jacket could be achieved by keeping the knit at it's maximum width throughout but adding a slight angle to each end.
. There IS something to the shaping of the color before installation though.. I have been installing mine with the widest part in the back and curve the end to be, less wide. I prefer the look that gives. I think the look of the collar on the pictured jacket could be achieved by keeping the knit at it's maximum width throughout but adding a slight angle to each end.
Dr H
Well-Known Member
I agree Doug. It's not dissimilar to the result of the collar surgery that I performed recently on my ELC .50 cal A-1, with a deeper back and shallower front knit.
It's takes a while and a bit of patience, but it's achievable.
I like the look of Woodring's jacket too, especially the pocket flaps, which resemble one of John earliest jackets that I owned.
The depth of the pockets doesn't appeal, but they would have more practical than other patterns with the more common, smaller pockets.
Woodring looks very slight and wiry and the (presumably smaller 36"?) jacket might exaggerate this (I imagine the pockets were patterned for the jacket regardless of tagged size).
It's takes a while and a bit of patience, but it's achievable.
I like the look of Woodring's jacket too, especially the pocket flaps, which resemble one of John earliest jackets that I owned.
The depth of the pockets doesn't appeal, but they would have more practical than other patterns with the more common, smaller pockets.
Woodring looks very slight and wiry and the (presumably smaller 36"?) jacket might exaggerate this (I imagine the pockets were patterned for the jacket regardless of tagged size).
Dr H said:
Yea I noticed those pocket flaps too, I like them myself and even prefer them but in truth you do see the simpler ones like in JC's newer jacket more in vintage pictures. As for the snaps vs. buttons issue (mentioned earlier), I can say that after owning several A1 jackets of both designs.. the snaps are way easier to deal with way down at the bottom of the jacket IMHO. Plus they're accurate and so that's what I use. So many variation means that nearly everyone will like something different I guess.
In this pic, the guy next to Lt. Woodring with the goggles might have his collar up but everyone else's seems to be laying flat.
But look at the contrast in the color of the leather compared to the guy third from the right. His jacket is really a light shade.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
But look at the contrast in the color of the leather compared to the guy third from the right. His jacket is really a light shade.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Dr H
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the image Doug, looks great.
The original spec called for seal cape but apparently the early tanning oxidised the hide to more of a russet.
Cape really goes pretty pale with wear/sun exposure and I guess that's partly what's shown here.
I really like those proportions with the boots. I've just picked up a pair of 'elephant ear' Johds to go flying with the A-1 in the summer, really looking forward to it...
The original spec called for seal cape but apparently the early tanning oxidised the hide to more of a russet.
Cape really goes pretty pale with wear/sun exposure and I guess that's partly what's shown here.
I really like those proportions with the boots. I've just picked up a pair of 'elephant ear' Johds to go flying with the A-1 in the summer, really looking forward to it...
Dr H said:
That's a sharp eye! I too see what appears to be a line of stitching around the outer edge.
Actually the guy with the goggles next to Woodring also has a light colored leather.. and .. the guy with the dark jacket next to the original light colored one that I pointed out - his collar looks to be standing proud on one side also, if I'm not mistaken. I love these old pictures!
Ya'll ready for another keen observation?
I've been wondering for some time how sure we are that the pockets of the A1's were actually lined, or maybe how often they were lined. You see in most of these old pictures the pockets "bag out" slightly as if they've been stretched from holding items in them. That can't easily happen if they are lined, at least not with a non-stretchy cotton. My theory being that the lining would force them to hold their shape to a large extent. Hair Sheep (aka Cape) is a somewhat stretchy leather and I can see it doing this pretty easily if not lined.
Anyhow - here's a picture Holtoner showing the same collar shape as the OP brought to our attention. LOOK CLOSELY AND YOU CAN MAKE OUT THE LINE OF STITCHING AROUND THE OUTSIDE EDGE!!
I've been wondering for some time how sure we are that the pockets of the A1's were actually lined, or maybe how often they were lined. You see in most of these old pictures the pockets "bag out" slightly as if they've been stretched from holding items in them. That can't easily happen if they are lined, at least not with a non-stretchy cotton. My theory being that the lining would force them to hold their shape to a large extent. Hair Sheep (aka Cape) is a somewhat stretchy leather and I can see it doing this pretty easily if not lined.
Anyhow - here's a picture Holtoner showing the same collar shape as the OP brought to our attention. LOOK CLOSELY AND YOU CAN MAKE OUT THE LINE OF STITCHING AROUND THE OUTSIDE EDGE!!
