12 O'clock High vs The War Lover Jackets

[okejohn]

I've watched both movies in the last few days and I noticed that in 12 o'clock they wore the A2 on bombing runs and in The War Lover they wore what I assume is the B-3. Also, in most of the other movies it's the A2.

Question for you history buffs: Was one more accurate than the other in real life, or did it depend on the temperature and weather.

John O.

 

[Jaydee]

I would think that the Aircrewman would only be issued one flight jacket based on his position in the aircraft. In the cockpit and turrets of a bomber it's a lot warmer so those guys would probably be issued A-2's. Maybe the officer aircrew got to choose which jacket? I have seen fighter pilots in B-3s. Just conjecture. Someone may know the real history....

 

[Roughwear]

I would think that the Aircrewman would only be issued one flight jacket based on his position in the aircraft. In the cockpit and turrets of a bomber it's a lot warmer so those guys would probably be issued A-2's. Maybe the officer aircrew got to choose which jacket? I have seen fighter pilots in B-3s. Just conjecture. Someone may know the real history....

You see plenty of pictures of complete crews in B3s and in A2s and a combination of both, so I believe they were usually issued with both until 1943. What they actually wore on flights depended on the time of year, whether the cockpit was heated, the layers they wore underneath their jacket etc.. I suspect it would be less restrictive to fly a B-17 in an A2 than in a B3!

 

[capt71]

Deleted

 

[Geir]

I have a book somewhere by a pilot who flew with the 379 BG in 1943 and 1944. He came to Kimbolton shortly after the second Schweinfurt raid in October. From what I remember he preferred an electrically heated suit for protection against the cold and carried the B-3 as a backup in case of malfunction. Also the plane could be very cold if it was perforated by flak. He did not wear a sheepskin jacket when flying if he could avoid it.
Over the years I have read many books by WW2 aircrew and the strange thing is that no one seems to have been very interested in flight jackets at all.

Geir

 

[tgd31968]

Over the years I have read many books by WW2 aircrew and the strange thing is that no one seems to have been very interested in flight jackets at all.

Geir

Think of it from their point of veiw Flight gear was equipment needed to survive at high altitude in the cold, not a fashion statement. How cool you look in your jacket is not much of a concern when you are climbing into an aluminum tube to get shot at, burned to death, or torn open by flak every few days.

I am sure they liked having jackets and a look that set them appart from ground pounders, but I doubt many though too much about that at the time. It is my contention that the "Iconization and sentimentalization and romantization" of the flight jackets was mainly a civilian thing at the time, a war poster thing, and only caught on with some of the vets after completeing their tour or a few years after the war.

As far as what they wore, remember the A-2 is a summer flying jacket, the B-3, b-6 and b-10 were winter. So no doubt they had both unless the lost or traded them away. To get by at high altitude in a A-2, you would surely need some layers under it, and even then it would be cold. -40 F for 8-10 hours and no option to stand up and walk around much? And with the gun positions open sucking what little heat you had out, forget it. If you live in a cold weather area, try driving down the freeway at 70-80 MPH with all 4 windows down at even +20 F with the heater going full blast. Do that for 8-10 hours in an A-2, then tell me what you think it would be like at 200 Mph at -40 F.

There are pics of guys with the A-2 on UNDER a b-3, if that gives you any indication.

If you look carefully at the breifing scenes in 12-oclock high, many are wearing b-10s too. I am trying to remember if is is that movie or the war lover where someone is wearing a b-10 type jacket with a white or at least very light colored collar.

 

[deand]

None of the jackets in Twelve O'Clock High have any patches or rear jacket artwork. Too early in the bombing campaign, or just an oversight by the costume department? :?





dean

 

[deeb7]

As far as what they wore, remember the A-2 is a summer flying jacket, the B-3, b-6 and b-10 were winter. So no doubt they had both unless the lost or traded them away ....

.... If you look carefully at the breifing scenes in 12-oclock high, many are wearing b-10s too. I am trying to remember if is is that movie or the war lover where someone is wearing a b-10 type jacket with a white or at least very light colored collar.

The B-3, and B-6 were Winter, but the B-10 was Intermediate, and designed as a replacement for the A-2, so with the B-10, and A-2 I think it was a case of either/or.

B-10's with a white collar ..... good.

 

[Tim P]

B-10's with a white collar ..... good. [/quote]

Oh yes. still agonising over a hong kong one off ebay. any top enders doing them right now?

the A-2 AND B-3 were issued as part of a crewmans ensemble.

 

[MikeyB-17]

One of the chaps here met Chuck Yeager a while back (I forget who), and asked him about the A-2. Yeager replied that they were too cold, and the fliers preferred the cloth jackets, which were warmer (words to that effect, anyway). My A-2 isn't getting any wear right now-it's too darn cold, and the A-2 just doesn't have enough insulation. No way I'd rely on one to keep warm in a B-17 at altitude.

 

[Swing]

I've watched both movies in the last few days and I noticed that in 12 o'clock they wore the A2 on bombing runs and in The War Lover they wore what I assume is the B-3. Also, in most of the other movies it's the A2.

Question for you history buffs: Was one more accurate than the other in real life, or did it depend on the temperature and weather.

John O.

What was worn was dependent on a lot of things... what year of the war is was, the season, the theater you were serving in, the type and model of aircraft you flew in, and where your position was in that aircraft. Until the end of 1944 you saw a lot of variation in what was worn by ETO heavy bomber crews. From late '44 onward the F-3 electric suit with a B-10 or B-15 and its corresponding trousers over it was pretty standard.

~Swing

 

[Andrew]

One of the chaps here met Chuck Yeager a while back (I forget who), and asked him about the A-2. Yeager replied that they were too cold, and the fliers preferred the cloth jackets, which were warmer (words to that effect, anyway). My A-2 isn't getting any wear right now-it's too darn cold, and the A-2 just doesn't have enough insulation. No way I'd rely on one to keep warm in a B-17 at altitude.

That was me. It was at the Avalon Airshow 2007 and I was lucky to be in the right place just as he was finished touring the flightline. His minder (a very efficient lady) granted a few signatures (for a donation of course) and I was the only one with an A-2, and something that's not too common at airshows here so he made the comment. Mikey, you're very close, his words were "too darn cold..."

As soon as I get my butt into gear i'll be listing it for sale.

 

[deeb7]

B-10's with a white collar ..... good.

Oh yes. still agonising over a hong kong one off ebay. any top enders doing them right now?

You don't want that Spearhead thing.

I don't think anyone else is currently making them, but I'm sure that Buzz will eventually do them again.

 

[Anonymous]

Over the years I have read many books by WW2 aircrew and the strange thing is that no one seems to have been very interested in flight jackets at all.

Geir

I've spoken with a few Vets as they've been visiting their old bases over here in East Anglia and whilst none of them were too clear on the details of their jackets (including maker press stud sizes, pocket scallops and pointy or otherwise collars or grain), they were definately gung-ho elite guys who knew the A-2 and crusher carried a lot of swank on the ground and denoted their flight status. The difference I reckon was that they were more occupied with girls and flying to worry about the details and it probably wasn't cool to sit there and measure and analyse how and of what their various jackets were made of. They knew exactly what worked for them in the air but didn't need to know how, what, why and by whom. Only that some things worked better than others. I have to say too that every aircrew I've spoken with had a twinkle in his eye. Characters all !

It had a lot to do with what position and which airplane. Gunners had a cold time of it - particularly the waist boys but I have photos of pilots wearing flight suits over A-2's over electrically heated suits. Still less bulky than the sheepskin for them perhaps ?

Dave

We better keep asking these questions because soon there'll be no-one left to ask

 

[rich]

In Sweeting's Combat Flying Gear, there's the technical order 'Kit, flyer's clothing and equipment.' It's dated October '45 but
section II states things like 'additional clothing issued according to type of aircraft and crew positions.' Another part is for
'exposed gunners only', 'for ball turret gunners only', 'will be supplied for use in Central Pacific' etc. It's a massive list, there must be one for 1943/44 available somewhere?

 

[tgd31968]

As far as what they wore, remember the A-2 is a summer flying jacket, the B-3, b-6 and b-10 were winter. So no doubt they had both unless the lost or traded them away ....

.... If you look carefully at the breifing scenes in 12-oclock high, many are wearing b-10s too. I am trying to remember if is is that movie or the war lover where someone is wearing a b-10 type jacket with a white or at least very light colored collar.

The B-3, and B-6 were Winter, but the B-10 was Intermediate, and designed as a replacement for the A-2, so with the B-10, and A-2 I think it was a case of either/or.

B-10's with a white collar ..... good.

I was thinking that as I typed, but I didn't bother to check it. Thanks.

A replacement for the A-2 might have been the intent, but in terms of utility, the b-10 seems way more practical. The A-2 being summer weight, and no insulation helps keep you from burning to death quite as fast, keeps hot engine oil and radiator fluid (assuming you are flying a Spit or Mustang) off you and helps protect your hide during bail out, but warmth? Not so much. Without a vest on under it, my A-2 is COLD. MA-1 is way more practical as long as you don't mind being called a skinhead once in a while.

 

[capt71]

I just had a phone conversation with a 380th BG B-24 vet who flew with my father out of N. Australia. I asked him about the issuance and use of flight gear then, including jackets. Here's what he told me (not verbatim, since I was madly scribbling notes while he talked):

"As I remember, the first item we got issued was in B-24 training before we deployed to Australia--an A-2. The crew flight gear (masks, suits, heavy gloves, etc) was issued to each aircraft according to its Theater of Operations assignment, not to each individual crewmember. Europe bound B-24s received the warmer items, while the South Pacific bound aircraft got lighter gear. A funny story: when we were getting ready to deploy to Australia from Lowry AFB in Denver, the supply folks mistakenly thought my plane and crew were bound for Europe, so they loaded the plane with the heavier cold weather gear. The supply officer came by and started yelling at his men that this B-24 was going to Australia, not Europe and to get the stuff the h--- out of the plane! The supply guys were on one side of the B-24 throwing the gear out of the waist gun window, and my crew was on the other side, putting it all back in! We ended up keeping it and took it with us. I had an electric-heated suit, but don't think I ever used it once we deployed. For most missions I remember that I wore mostly khaki pants and shirts. I wore my A-2 usually, or another heavy jacket I had. I don't remember ever wearing a B-3. Our cockpits had heaters, but the crew in back usually wore the heavier gear."

Bill

 

[Weasel_Loader]

Good stuff guys.

I often wondered how cold it got up at altitude in the Pacific. I never got a chance to ask my uncle who flew with the 90th BG from '44-45. One would assume it still got pretty cold at the higher altitudes even in the Pacific. I do recall that most of his missions were flown at very low levels though.

 

[Swing]

Good stuff guys.

I often wondered how cold it got up at altitude in the Pacific. I never got a chance to ask my uncle who flew with the 90th BG from '44-45. One would assume it still got pretty cold at the higher altitudes even in the Pacific. I do recall that most of his missions were flown at very low levels though.

I read somewhere that temp. was supposed to drop three degrees for every 1000 ft. So at 20,000 to 25,000 ft in the Pacific, you're still looking at temps below freezing.

~Swing

 

[rich]

Comme ca