Modern issue A-2: the new collector item?

[Former.USAF.C130]

Good point about modern A-2s not associated with being worn in the cockpit and thus lacking the allure of their WWII counterparts.

While there are absolutely zero signs modern A-2s will match the popularity of WWII jackets in 100 years from now, I wouldn’t say it’s impossible. I contend that the future remains wide open for modern A-2s to develop collector’s status. I’d say unlikely, but I won’t close that door entirely…think of the paradigm shift with drones gradually replacing manned flight. Perhaps in a hundred years collectors will romanticize about the “pre-AI” age with the same fervor as us with WWII and these newer A-2s will amass collector status We just can’t know.

"think of the paradigm shift with drones gradually replacing manned flight."
To amplify my earlier reply,AI IS the game changer. I never even thought of it. The whole drone thing will kill the romance of aviation. It's hard to think of a drone pilot as a brave daredevil fighting his foe face to face. Harder still when the pilot is a robot.

 

[MauldinFan]

The F-18 Super Hornet has a small personal items compartment behind and below the cockpit on the outside left of the aircraft. Pilots carry small bags and jackets in there sometimes. When I saw that, I was like "No way! That's pretty cool."

I knew a B-17 copilot veteran who flew P-47s for the Maryland Air National Guard after the war. He said they had a casing that would attach to the shackles under the plane for external tanks of ordnance, which had a door for the pilot to place his personal stuff. It came in real handy when they'd do an annual trip to Key West.
He didn't have a photo of what they looked like and I've often wondered which one they used.
Over the years I've wanted to draw the Jug He ditched into Baltimore Harbor, the second of two times he ditched (the first being his B-17 in the North Sea in 1944).

FYI, that's him to the far right in a B-15 jacket, Watchung his mount being pulled from the harbor.

Here she is before that.

 

[Skyhawk]

@MauldinFan​

That guy is a water landing expert!
They still use "Travel Pods" to this day:

 

[B-Man2]

Re fit: I did not follow the recommendation to size down; I wasn't aware of it. Depending on the brand, I usually wear either a 46R or 48R in a suit or sport coat, but sometimes I have worn a Long. In flight jackets I have worn various sizes over the years, as my weight fluctuates.

I devoted a LOT of time trying to find the right fit for a flight jacket. I already knew that fit depends upon size and manufacturer; one maker's 46 will not necessarily be the same as another maker's 46. . . I have a size 48R G&B which fits perfectly. I have an Old Avirex in Size XL Regular, which I think is in the range of Size 46-48. It fits me perfectly in the chest and arms, but is short. I tried a Cooper 46R and it was tight and restricted my arm movements, so I would probably need a size 48 in a Cooper.

Eventually I ordered a DSPC Cockpit USA in 46 Long, on the basis that it was inexpensive and returnable. [A 46 Regular comes just below my belt, and if my pants slip down, the belt buckle will peek out.] If it didn't fit well, I would go up to a 48.

I am very happy with the fit of the DSCP Cockpit USA 46L.

I will be happy to provide pictures, but I don't have a decent camera. I know somebody who does, but it might take several days to get an appointment with her. So please be patient.

Phone cameras will work

 

[Former.USAF.C130]

My phone camera takes crappy photos, but I know someone who has a great camera.
I want to show more than the front and back with me in the jacket. I also want to show the sleeves and the color of the jacket in direct sunlight. I think it is in general a good jacket.

 

[Former.USAF.C130]

If I were inclined to collect, I would be going for good-quality (not top-quality) flight jackets of various types of leather in various colors.

True.

I saw this on greedBay and it started me to thinking, will current issue flight kit someday be highly sought after like the WW2 stuff is?

NOS USAF DSCP COCKPIT OFFICIAL A-2 FLIGHT JACKET 46L | eBay

Size is 46L. COCKPIT USA is the official supplier of A-2 jackets for the U.S. Air Force. Sleeve: 28. Pit to pit: 27.

www.ebay.com

 

[Former.USAF.C130]

I bought this same jacket last week. The one you are looking at is overpriced by about $400; I paid $150 for the new one.

I believe you asked me a question about fit and photos. I am not sure you got my reply, so here goes (again):

Re fit: I did not follow the recommendation to size down; I wasn't aware of it. Depending on the brand, I usually wear either a 46R or 48R in a suit or sport coat, but sometimes I have worn a Long. In flight jackets I have worn various sizes over the years, as my weight fluctuates.
I devoted a LOT of time trying to find the right fit for a flight jacket. I already knew that fit depends upon size and manufacturer; one maker's 46 will not necessarily fit the same as another maker's 46. . I have a size 48R G&B which fits perfectly. I have an Old Avirex in Size XL Regular, which I think is in the range of Size 46-48. It fits me perfectly in the chest and arms, but is short. I tried a Cooper 46R and it was tight and restricted my arm movements, so I would probably need a size 48 in a Cooper.
Eventually I ordered a DSPC Cockpit USA in 46 Long, on the basis that it was inexpensive and returnable. [A 46 Regular comes just below my belt, and if my pants slip down, the belt buckle will peek out.] If it didn't fit well, I would have gone up to a 48.
I am very happy with the fit of the DSCP Cockpit USA 46L.
I will be happy to provide pictures, but I don't have a decent camera. I know somebody who does, but it might take several days to get an appointment with her. So please be patient.

 

[Former.USAF.C130]

That particular jacket IMO will never be highly collectable! Not built to vintage standards nor the standards of the better repro makers we all know, albeit we do see from time to time crazy prices for some of those!!

I own this exact jacket. It is a good jacket, but has some cosmetic issues. I agree that this jacket will never be collectible.

 

[Former.USAF.C130]

The answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT. These jackets are just not the same as the WW2 stuff- they aren't really a thing as far as I know. Avirex fucked up the design back in the 80' and it hasn't gotten any better since. Look at the gigantic overly square shoulders which the 8" epaulets hold in place. The horrible nondescript weird wannabe seal color which would be best described as "slug gray". Those twinky little heart shaped pocket flaps. The terrible pilling knits. The lady's garment eye-and-hook closure. The fuzzy polyester lining. The only thing it's got going for it is the goatskin which unfortunately is slug gray. They're still being made- phoned in as it were by companies like The Cockpit or DSCP which already make horrible G-1s.

The WW2/Korea stuff is extremely well made (unlike what what VLJ lore tell us) and has just acres of character. Each contract until the 1960s had unique features and weird foibles. The leather used was BEAUTIFUL!

The current issue A-2 is just a useless appendage (like the silly new Army WW2 uniforms) which try to do some bullshit morale thing or whatever... what do those jackets do?
IMO far more interesting are the CWU series- at least they have a function.

I agree with you in every respect. Something you didn't mention: this is a cowhide jacket, and it is heavier than a goatskin jacket.

 

[Pa12]

I own this exact jacket. It is a good jacket, but has some cosmetic issues. I agree that this jacket will never be collectible.

Never say never. I’m amazed every day to see what’s become collectable. All a matter of time.

 

[Nickb123]

"think of the paradigm shift with drones gradually replacing manned flight."
To amplify my earlier reply,AI IS the game changer. I never even thought of it. The whole drone thing will kill the romance of aviation. It's hard to think of a drone pilot as a brave daredevil fighting his foe face to face. Harder still when the pilot is a robot.

which is why I’m thinking all we will have years and years from now are these 90s-2000s Cockpits and Coopers which will embody the spirit of mankind’s final push into the air!

And one correction with Beanie Babies earlier in this thread. There are a few that are marginally collectable, but it depends on what version the tag is. Those have sellers asking for $250k when I last checked. Could probably net a couple hundred on those. I know because my cousin has the rainbow crab and Princess Diana editions hahaha. I audited her 50+ piece collection and found the value was right at about $0. But with the proper tags, could be worth something to the right uneducated buyer!

 

[B-Man2]

So the question I’d like to ask is what makes a “reproduction” of a WWII A2 jacket more desirable/collectable/valuable than an actual USAF issued and worn A2 jacket from say the Gulf War era?
One jacket is commercially made and other than appearance has no connection to actual military service or a war or any individual who fought in a war ….while the other is an actual military war worn artifact . Lets forget about whether we’re fans of the look , components and manufacture of the Gulf War jacket and just focus on the fact that we have overlooked the significance of the difference between the commercially made repro and the actual been there history of the 1991 issued Gulf War jacket . One’s the “ Real Deal while the other is a commercial copy of a wartime jacket . Your thoughts please .

 

[Former.USAF.C130]

So the question I’d like to ask is what makes a “reproduction” of a WWII A2 jacket more desirable/collectable/valuable than an actual USAF issued and worn A2 jacket from say the Gulf War era?
One jacket is commercially made and other than appearance has no connection to actual military service or a war or any individual who fought in a war ….while the other is an actual military war worn artifact . Lets forget about whether we’re fans of the look , components and manufacture of the Gulf War jacket and just focus on the fact that we have overlooked the significance of the difference between the commercially made repro and the actual been there history of the 1991 issued Gulf War jacket . One’s the “ Real Deal while the other is a commercial copy of a wartime jacket . Your thoughts please .

I would speculate that the difference is simply the motive of the buyer. I would assume that collectors would go for the jackets which were worn on wartime missions. I would also assume that there are some non-collectors who think it would be cool to own something of that type. Then there are guys like me who want a new jacket, and not a used jacket no matter how heroic its provenance.
So, if I am right, there are three different market segments (and maybe more), with different standards of value and perhaps different price structures.

 

[Former.USAF.C130]

I saw this on greedBay and it started me to thinking, will current issue flight kit someday be highly sought after like the WW2 stuff is?

NOS USAF DSCP COCKPIT OFFICIAL A-2 FLIGHT JACKET 46L | eBay

Size is 46L. COCKPIT USA is the official supplier of A-2 jackets for the U.S. Air Force. Sleeve: 28. Pit to pit: 27.

www.ebay.com

You requested photos of this jacket. They are attached. Several explanations: the wrinkling you see on the shoulder photo completely covers both arms; none of the photos gives a good picture of the actual color of the jacket (because we had no direct sunlight) but one photo of the front somewhat shows the lighter brown that is the color of this jacket. The color of the photos of the back somewhat show the brownish color; insofar as they suggest that the jacket is seal brown they are misleading. Although I tried to edit the photos to show the true color, I could not. All I can say is that the brown color, viewed in the light, is a light brown, and not an attractive one, IMHO.

I see no likelihood that this jacket could ever become a collector's item. However, it is well-made, sturdy and probably durable (it is cowhide).

 

[Former.USAF.C130]

You requested photos of this jacket. They are attached. Several explanations: the wrinkling you see on the shoulder photo completely covers both arms; none of the photos gives a good picture of the actual color of the jacket (because we had no direct sunlight) but one photo of the front somewhat shows the lighter brown that is the color of this jacket. The color of the photos of the back somewhat show the brownish color; insofar as they suggest that the jacket is seal brown they are misleading. Although I tried to edit the photos to show the true color, I could not. All I can say is that the brown color, viewed in the light, is a light brown, and not an attractive one, IMHO.
I see no likelihood that this jacket could ever become a collector's item. As ZuZu commented, it seems that the finish on the leather was sprayed on. The purpose of this escapes me, but the effect is to cause the leather on the arms to appear cracked, which it is not, but it is not an attractive look.

However, it is well-made, sturdy and probably durable (it is cowhide).

Here is a better picture of the fit.

 

[Former.USAF.C130]

I saw this on greedBay and it started me to thinking, will current issue flight kit someday be highly sought after like the WW2 stuff is?

NOS USAF DSCP COCKPIT OFFICIAL A-2 FLIGHT JACKET 46L | eBay

Size is 46L. COCKPIT USA is the official supplier of A-2 jackets for the U.S. Air Force. Sleeve: 28. Pit to pit: 27.

www.ebay.com

I am thinking that it might be useful to start a thread about jackets or manufacturers that are considered to be of questionable quality. Does anyone agree?

 

[Former.USAF.C130]

I think everyone's opinions here have some valid points. However I would like to bring out something. I think most of you forget to look into the future rather than looking into the past. I see a lot of you saying that modern day military issued jackets are poorly made, have terrible leather etc etc etc. Now if we compare a modern jacket to something from WW2 then you'd be correct to say that, however the future may hold some bad surprises for all of us. There is more and more laws/bans on certain items or products because of climate change, look at cars, multiple countries have a set date as to when they will no longer be selling gasoline powered vehicles. Today's cheap Toyota Corolla might be worth gold to someone in 15 years because it will have a traditional engine. Where am I going with this? I wouldn't be surprised if the military standards will one day change, maybe there will be no more leather allowed at all, maybe the a-2 will be replaced by some new material made out of recycled potatoes? And now imagine the people in 50 years, who might not even have leather issued jackets in the army/air force/navy anymore... Well to them, today's "quality" will be like diamonds. They will have their own forum and they will be on the lookout for the cockpit dscp a-2 or whoever makes them nowadays.

I know all of this is speculative, but I think the world might change a lot in the next few decades, so much so that today's poor quality might be tomorrow's high standard.

I strongly suspect that you are correct: animal hides might become prohibited, or simply unavailable because of a change of dietary practices. It is already known that using land and water to grow cattle is using valuable resources. On top of that, we have PETA, which is trying to prohibit the killing of animals. And there is also the dawning awareness that many animals have emotions. So, the end is nigh !! And it is probably not 50 years away.

In the interim, what is going to cause crappy jackets, without a provable military history, to climb in value (beyond inflation)? I can't think of anything, for one reason: if the demand is sufficient, there will be a new stream of jackets coming out of places like Pakistan or China. Pakistan is already making low-price flight jackets, as is India. As far as I know, China hasn't begun yet, but China currently makes cowboy boots for a formerly prestigious bootmaker, so perhaps that experience would translate to making flight jackets.

 

[Pilot]

Love my Saddlery issued a-2
Greetings to all .. happy flying again an an A-380…
The Roly is always present!

 

[ZuZu]

So the question I’d like to ask is what makes a “reproduction” of a WWII A2 jacket more desirable/collectable/valuable than an actual USAF issued and worn A2 jacket from say the Gulf War era?
One jacket is commercially made and other than appearance has no connection to actual military service or a war or any individual who fought in a war ….while the other is an actual military war worn artifact . Lets forget about whether we’re fans of the look , components and manufacture of the Gulf War jacket and just focus on the fact that we have overlooked the significance of the difference between the commercially made repro and the actual been there history of the 1991 issued Gulf War jacket . One’s the “ Real Deal while the other is a commercial copy of a wartime jacket . Your thoughts please .

There are 2 things which make a repro WW2 jacket more desirable than an actual "been there" Gulf War or GWOT A-2 jacket.

First- there was no glory or great cause or actually anything good at all about the Gulf War- it was basically just a gigantic military exercise against a practically defenseless 3rd World army. The cause was to defend a disgusting monarchy who happened to have "our" oil. No cachet there.

Second (and mainly IMO) the design of that modern A-2 is just too ugly to ever be admired for its intrinsic qualities- unlike WW2 jackets. The modern A-2 is actually a BAD Avirex copy of a WW2 jacket- it's a bad repro to start with. A good repro (BK, Eastman, GW, etc,) of a WW2 A-2 is automatically going to look better than the modern version- especially when you get into the details.

The only cool jackets IMO of our own era are the CWU jackets- very well designed with interesting characteristics and a bit of design history.

 

[Former.USAF.C130]

There are 2 things which make a repro WW2 jacket more desirable than an actual "been there" Gulf War or GWOT A-2 jacket.

First- there was no glory or great cause or actually anything good at all about the Gulf War- it was basically just a gigantic military exercise against a practically defenseless 3rd World army. The cause was to defend a disgusting monarchy who happened to have "our" oil. No cachet there.

Second (and mainly IMO) the design of that modern A-2 is just too ugly to ever be admired for its intrinsic qualities- unlike WW2 jackets. The modern A-2 is actually a BAD Avirex copy of a WW2 jacket- it's a bad repro to start with. A good repro (BK, Eastman, GW, etc,) of a WW2 A-2 is automatically going to look better than the modern version- especially when you get into the details.

The only cool jackets IMO of our own era are the CWU jackets- very well designed with interesting characteristics and a bit of design history.

Interesting perspective. I would suggest that the current-issue USAF A-2, might be seen as a recruitment tool, making aviation to seem especially glamorous. I have never held a current-issue USAF A-2 in my hands, but I had some experience with the nylon MA-1 jackets of the Vietnam era, and they were nothing to write home about in terms of quality, so I wouldn't expect much from the current issue USAF A-2. As to the CWU, I have both the 36 and the 45. I appreciate that they are light weight, and I can vouch for the fact that the CWU-45 is quite adequate against the low winter temperatures and winds we get around the Chicago area.