Superb D.G. LTD IRVIN

[Roughwear]

D.G. Ltd or D.G.L (London) made some of the best quality Irvins supplied to the RAF. They were in the premier league along with Irvin Air Chute. This newly acquired jacket dates from around 1942 and is typical of mid War construction with the four panel front and back.

The jacket is in remarkable condition with very few signs of wear. The stitching is straight and secure. The cooper-coloured fleece is rarer than the more normal honey coloured variety. As a size 5 its a decent fit and very comfortable to wear.

The zips are all made by Lightning and the "W" on the sleeve zips most likely denotes that they were made at Witton in Birmingham. The main zip is interesting and unsual in that it fastens the American way. Apart from the elastic collar strap everything is original to the jacket. It has had one light coat of Pecards to protect the leather.

The jacket was owned by F. H. Bateman and I am trying to reseach him at the moment. Notice the Stores number is stamped on the label. It was vey rare for makers to put their name on labels at this time.

 

[rich]

Outstanding Andrew.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Nice jacket, Andrew. A few things, though. I know we've been over them before.

As i recall it, the D.G.L. (London) and D.G. Ltd connection was speculative. Possible. Probable, even … but speculative. And i also recall the "W" = made in Lightning's Witton plant, being highly speculative, with no supporting evidence (almost a definition of speculation). That probably came from Dr Eardley, i would have thought.

bk

 

[Roughwear]

Nice jacket, Andrew. A few things, though. I know we've been over them before.

As i recall it, the D.G.L. (London) and D.G. Ltd connection was speculative. Possible. Probable, even … but speculative. And i also recall the "W" = made in Lightning's Witton plant, being highly speculative, with no supporting evidence (almost a definition of speculation). That probably came from Dr Eardley, i would have thought.

bk

D.G. LTD and D.G.L were almost certainly the same firm. I own three jackets by them, all with similar features and have seen both D.G. LTD and D.G.L labels on jackets with the same features. In fact Paddy has just posted his jacket with a D.G.L London label on on TFL. The jacket is identical to mine, apart from the zips and the label is very similar in style.

As far as the "W" is concerned on the Lightning zips it is known that the main factory was at Witton although others were in Wales and Canada. There is a yet no ducumentary proof for the W standing for Witton, but it makes sense.

 

[Roughwear]

The first label is from Paddy's jacket which is pictured on the FL. His jacket is probably slightly earlier as it has Dot cast sliders and double trunnion pullers. The type face is not identical on the two labels as this depended on where the manufacturer sourced the labels, but both are similar in lay out and design.

Below is the label from my jacket. It is characteristic of the type face used on jacket labels from 1942 onwards.

Putting labels to one side what is key is the features of a jacket and each maker had what I would describe as "house" features. D.G.L London and D.G.LTD used thick angora style fleece, large collar rings, thin belt loops and the collars were thick with almost square ends. When you have handled several you begin to recognise them quite easily.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Funnily enough, Lightning Fastener had a factory in Tottenham (as did ZIPP, funnily enough), and some of the parts were manufactured in Walthamstow during the war too. There are detailed German bombing maps for the Lea valley which identify military targets, including the Tottenham factory. I'm interested to know whether your zips say Lightning and "W". There was, as you know, the idea that the "W" marked pullers may have been later or fakes.

I'm afraid i am not a member of the choir when it comes to features defining makers. Add private purchase and the possibility of totally unknown companies copying jackets in the pre- and post-war years, to the idea of subcontracting (i'm not sure if Alan has gone public yet with his recent finding about one of the major (sub)contractors), and sharing of patterns or patterns being supplied by the Air Ministry and i don't see how the maker of a jacket can be definitely identified by features alone. We'll never agree on this point, i think.

bk

 

[Roughwear]

The Lightning style pullers on the sleeve zips only have W marked on them and the usual AM and Kings crown on the other.

You are quite correct about sub-contractors. It is well known that some of the main makers sub-contracted to small firms- almost a sort of cottage industry! However I stand by my view on key features of some makers. It is not conjecture but is based on handling well over 200 original Irvins, seeing pictures of many more and seeing named labels from different makers. If you take this to its logical conclusion you could say an original A2 which has lost its label could be from any maker, yet it will have key characteristics to link it to a specific manufacturer. Similarly with Irvins when you have handled many you begin to recognise certain characteristics linked to makers-information gathered from those few Irvins with surviving named labels.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Therein lies the ultimate problem with this line of argument: The very small number (percentage) of jackets with labels existent. Let's say there are 20 jackets with similar features, and 2 (10%) have labels from the same company. I think we've both been trained in similar ways vis a vis collection and analysis of data. I, personally, wouldn't be confident enough to reach the conclusion that all 20 jackets were made by the same manufacturer.

Just taking a point from motorcycle jackets. Several makers made extremely similar styles of jacket back in the day, of very similar materials. It is impossible to tell them apart without labels. Even telling whether a jacket was made in Canada or the USA is very difficult.

bk

 

[Roughwear]

Therein lies the ultimate problem with this line of argument: The very small number (percentage) of jackets with labels existent. Let's say there are 20 jackets with similar features, and 2 (10%) have labels from the same company. I think we've both been trained in similar ways vis a vis collection and analysis of data. I, personally, wouldn't be confident enough to reach the conclusion that all 20 jackets were made by the same manufacturer. bk

Peter I can know where you are coming from but do not share your scepticism about Irvin attributions. Obviously it would be so helpful if more jackets had named labels. As with A2s there was some slight variation from jackets made at the same time by the same maker. Each was constructed by a seamstress using the materials at hand. Sheepskins varied according to the breed of sheep and the tannery used. However there are still key features on a jacket which taken together link it to a specific maker. This not to deny that some of these may have been sub-contracted jackets. As part of my research on the subject I have compiled a long list of makers/contracts from labels with pictures of the jackets which serve to high light certain house features. There are of course jackets out there where it is currently not possible to attribute it to. There is much that we don't know on this subject and plenty of scope for further research.