my Duck hunter M65

[Tim P]

I was happy to get my duck hunter M65 but when it arrived it was shop rotten and needed repairs quite extensively. having repaired it on the machine it was servicable but has a real vintage look to it with zig zags and redone seams etc. It took the shine off a little.

then saw this;;

http://cgi.ebay.com/M1965-M65-DuckHunte ... 27afc8e9d5



not sure what to think.

 

[Peter Graham]

Tim, you never did post pics of your duck hunter M-65 after you had finished it. That jacket has a laughable BIN for an M-65, duck hunter camo or not. Is it even a military jacket ? No pic of the label bearing the DSA info.

 

[watchmanjimg]

I'm very confident these jackets aren't military issue. The "duck hunter" pattern was never standardized for US issue during Vietnam, and many such garments worn early in the war by US troops were privately purchased. The standard camouflage for US issue during the Vietnam period was ERDL, and there was never a field jacket produced in this pattern. In fact, the US Army was still using the olive-green M65 well into the 1980s until the woodland version was standardized.

Additionally, this jacket lacks the telltale aluminum zippers of early issued M65s. I'd bet it wasn't produced before 1975, if not much later.

 

[Tim P]

Oh I absolutely agree. All the tiger stripe and treebark ones you see knocking about are essentially the same as this one in my opinion..

 

[Atticus]

I'm very confident these jackets aren't military issue. The "duck hunter" pattern was never standardized for US issue during Vietnam, and many such garments worn early in the war by US troops were privately purchased. The standard camouflage for US issue during the Vietnam period was ERDL, and there was never a field jacket produced in this pattern. In fact, the US Army was still using the olive-green M65 well into the 1980s until the woodland version was standardized.
Additionally, this jacket lacks the telltale aluminum zippers of early issued M65s. I'd bet it wasn't produced before 1975, if not much later.

Jim, can you check on this? I thought the same thing until about a month ago when a friend showed me his issued M-65 in ERDL. I know ERDL and Woodland look similar, but this jacket was ERDL. The pattern had the thinner, smaller black markings that distinguish ERDL from Woodland.

My friend told me that his uncle gave him the jacket when the uncle returned from Vietnam...my friend was in high school at the time. Jim is about two years younger than me, so that would have been no later than 1976 or 1977. I tried to read the spec tag, but it was too badly worn for me to make out the DSA number. I did note that the zipper was exactly the same as the zipper on my 1970 So-Sew M-65.

By the way, Jim's uncle was a U.S. Army Veterinarian who was in charge of caring for the K-9s serving in country.

AF

 

[watchmanjimg]

Geoff:

I've checked on it and still don't think ERDL field jackets were ever issued. However, I have seen examples that in my opinion are not GI. For instance, the famous LJMilitaria website has a brown-dominant jacket made by Alpha with an obviously civilian label ("Made In USA" and all that). I also found a link to an old Ebay sale of a green-dominant jacket. The seller is the same individual who is currently offering the duck-hunter example. Curiously, the portion of the label containing the DSA number is not visible.

I understand that certain military items are very rare and don't show up on every street corner, but the notion of a standardized ERDL M65 jacket strikes me as suspect. They're certainly not mentioned in any book on Vietnam uniforms I've read, although I'm far from having read them all. I've also not seen any original photos, nor an example with a clearly legible spec label that defies identification as a repro.

Finally, the usual claim with regard to many oddball items presented as GI-issue is that they were used by SpecOps types. With all due respect to practitioners of veterinary medicine, I'm not sure your friend's uncle falls into that category.

As always, this is just my opinion based on experience and some research. Anyone in a position to correct me is warmly invited to do so.

 

[Atticus]

I'm pretty sure that some ERDL was issued in Vietnam. I had an issued EDRL tunic when I was in high school (1970-1974), compliments of a Lance Cpl. living next door to my parents. But I'm much less sure about field jackets. I had an M-51 in high school (snagged from the same sourse as the tunic), but I don't recall ever seeing a cammo field jacket until I managed to score a woodland M-65 in about 1984.

Jim was confident that his jacket came from his uncle's days in Vietnam...so I did some research and found that ERDL was first developed in the late forties and it saw limited use in Vietnam begining about 1967.

I am almost 100% sure the jacket in question was issued. If I can get Jim to let me borrow it, I'll try to get some photos. Also, in good light and with my glasses on, I may be able to read the spec tag.

AF

 

[watchmanjimg]

I'm pretty sure that some ERDL was issued in Vietnam. I had an issued EDRL tunic when I was in high school (1970-1974), compliments of a Lance Cpl. living next door to my parents. But I'm much less sure about field jackets. I had an M-51 in high school (snagged from the same sourse as the tunic), but I don't recall ever seeing a cammo field jacket until I managed to score a woodland M-65 in about 1984.

Jim was confident that his jacket came from his uncle's days in Vietnam...so I did some research and found that ERDL was first developed in the late forties and it saw limited use in Vietnam begining about 1967.

I am almost 100% sure the jacket in question was issued. If I can get Jim to let me borrow it, I'll try to get some photos. Also, in good light and with my glasses on, I may be able to read the spec tag.

AF

ERDL was absolutely issued in Vietnam, primarily in the form of jungle coats and trousers. There were also some "boonie" hats produced in the pattern beginning at least as early as 1968, although my understanding is that they were not issued in large numbers in Vietnam.

After Vietnam ERDL uniforms continued to be issued, albeit in a different configuration than the type used during the war. The coats featured straight pockets and the cargo pockets on the trousers had a single vertical gusset down the center, as opposed to the double rearward-facing pleats of the Vietnam pattern (which returned when the BDU was standardized). These uniforms were worn in some quantity by the USMC and in lesser numbers by the Army and Air Force. I've seen boxes full of such uniforms bearing the outline of multiple skill badges and 82nd Airborne as well as SF patches. I can only assume these were used during the Grenada operation or thereabouts.

Field jackets are a completely different story. The USMC used green M65s over ERDL jungle uniforms, as did the Army in the early days of the BDU. I'm anxious to see pics of your friend's jacket, but can this really be the only available proof of an issued ERDL M65? Keep us posted!

 

[Atticus]

OK...here's an update on my friend's Vietnam ERDL M-65.

It isn't.

After some intense cross examination, my firend now admits that his uncle gave him several field jackets over the years, and he's not sure that the jacket in question was one he got in high school (1975). Also, upon closer inspection, I'm not sure if the jacket is ERDL or woodland. It could be early woodland. Finally, the spec tag is worn to blank white...even with my glasses and bright light, I can't read any of it's fine print.

AF

 

[watchmanjimg]

Geoff:

I was looking forward to hearing from you on this, and at the risk of seeming like a know-it-all I must say I'm not surprised. I took another look at the pics of the ERDL M65 I mentioned finding earlier in this thread and saw that it was apparently made from the same ripstop material used in the jungle uniforms. This is quite different from the Quarpel-treated nylon/cotton sateen adopted by the end of the M51's service life and used in the OG-107 M65 as well as the later woodland and desert examples. Jackets constructed of the ripstop fabric would not afford the same warmth, water repellency, or durability of the standard models, which argues against the notion that they were produced in accordance with government specs. Moreover, I found several references to such jackets having been manufactured under such civilian labels as "Trooper." This brand, along with BVD and others, made private-purchase uniforms through the Cold War/Vietnam period.

In any case, it appears that we're back to where we started with no evidence of there having been an issued M65 in ERDL.

 

[a2 fng]

I was recently offered an ERDL RDF M65 jacket but didnt buy it as i couldnt find out if it was an issue or private purchase jacket.