Italian horsehide: give me the scoop

[Nickb123]

Guys and gals,

Since I’m very much contemplating a move to rainy Washington state, I’d like to hear some feedback on how Italian horsehide handles the rain.

I’ve listed up two of my A-2 jackets with this leather, but perhaps that was in haste. I’ve seen more than one story of shrinkage, which somewhat concerns me.

Best to wear and forget or be cautious?

Thanks for your collective knowledge!

 

[CBI]

I would not worry about it. The shrinkage comes from drying in hight heat (either dryer or a hot day). I can vouch though for fewer jackets is better! Blasphemy I know but IMO

 

[Southoftheborder]

I had an Eastman a few years ago that soaked up water like a sponge and darkened the wetted parts. I had to wet it all over to even it out and match the darkened areas.

 

[mulceber]

The shrinkage comes from drying in hight heat (either dryer or a hot day). I can vouch though for fewer jackets is better!

I never did that and still they shrunk.

Since I’m very much contemplating a move to rainy Washington state, I’d like to hear some feedback on how Italian horsehide handles the rain.

They're Good Wears, right? John pre-shrinks all his hides, so I wouldn't worry.

 

[Chandler]

I had an Eastman a few years ago that soaked up water like a sponge and darkened the wetted parts. I had to wet it all over to even it out and match the darkened areas.

Sounds like the aniline finish they tried out in the early 2000s. I knew some others who had it, but they said the darkness from water went away with drying -- did you get drenched?

Bigger question, did it shrink?

Had my HH 1401 for almost 25 years now, been in rain and snow -- no shrinkage. But it's veg-tanned and spray-finish, so it's pretty rugged.

 

[Pilot]

According to my little experience…
several qualties in italian HH.
Good ones 50-70 Euro/m2.
One need approx 3 to 3.5m2/ jacket ( A-2 Hartmann etc.. ).
Bad 3rd class quality…approx 40-50 Eur/m2… still 3 to 3.5m2 for a Hartmann or A-2 jacket…
Just wondering how the low cost makers can pay decent human respecting salaries and all others with a real quality ( italian ) HH jacket considering their selling prices..
What kind of HH do they use or what do they pay for their employees?… just wondering.

 

[mulceber]

Very few tanneries in Italy are willing to deal with horsehide, as acquiring it is a pain. GW, BK, Platon, Sheeley, Aero, and (until recently, I'm told) ELC all get theirs from Victoria Tannery. So I don't think the expense of the hide is a factor here.

 

[Pilot]

Very few tanneries in Italy are willing to deal with horsehide, as acquiring it is a pain. GW, BK, Platon, Sheeley, Aero, and (until recently, I'm told) ELC all get theirs from Victoria Tannery. So I don't think the expense of the hide is a factor here.

Please check it out… the price /m2… and feel free to share

 

[mulceber]

Ok, let's run the numbers. I'm going to use Platon as the test case, because his jackets are the cheapest.

He uses semi-aniline Victoria horsehide, the same stuff that's used by GW, Aero, and, until recently, Eastman. Since he's asking for the same leather a bunch of other people buy, I'm going to operate under the assumption that he probably gets it for near the bottom of the "good quality" scale, 55 euros per square meter. (BK, for their pigment finish is probably paying 60-65 euros. It's not a measure of quality. The extra cost comes from Victoria having to make a special batch.). That means the leather for a Platon Dubow costs 192.5 euros (give or take for different sizing). Factor in $50 or 45 euros for the high-end Talon repro, and about 40 euros on other materials, and a Platon jacket likely costs 277.50 euros in materials. They charge 450 euros, so that leaves 172.50 euros for labor and profits. Is that a lot? Compared to other manufacturers, no. HOWEVER:

Platon is pretty plainly the budget line of Bill Kelso. The money goes to the same paypal account, and we have no reason to doubt that they're made by the same employees. A Platon jacket is going to involve less work than a BK, simply by virtue of the fact that there's no customization. So much less time has to go into making one. They can just churn them out. So yeah, I can believe that they can afford a budget line with those numbers, especially since they're hoping that people who like their Platon jackets will buy one of their more expensive jackets.

 

[Pilot]

Ok, let's run the numbers. I'm going to use Platon as the test case, because his jackets are the cheapest.

He uses semi-aniline Victoria horsehide, the same stuff that's used by GW, Aero, and, until recently, Eastman. Since he's asking for the same leather a bunch of other people buy, I'm going to operate under the assumption that he probably gets it for near the bottom of the "good quality" scale, 55 euros per square meter. (BK, for their pigment finish is probably paying 60-65 euros. It's not a measure of quality. The extra cost comes from Victoria having to make a special batch.). That means the leather for a Platon Dubow costs 192.5 euros (give or take for different sizing). Factor in $50 or 45 euros for the high-end Talon repro, and about 40 euros on other materials, and a Platon jacket likely costs 277.50 euros in materials. They charge 450 euros, so that leaves 172.50 euros for labor and profits. Is that a lot? Compared to other manufacturers, no. HOWEVER:

Platon is pretty plainly the budget line of Bill Kelso. The money goes to the same paypal account, and we have no reason to doubt that they're made by the same employees. A Platon jacket is going to involve less work than a BK, simply by virtue of the fact that there's no customization. So much less time has to go into making one. They can just churn them out. So yeah, I can believe that they can afford a budget line with those numbers, especially since they're hoping that people who like their Platon jackets will buy one of their more expensive jackets.

Thanks Jan
please dont forget the min salaries in any EU country plus all others taxes..

 

[ties70]

According to my little experience…
several qualties in italian HH.
Good ones 50-70 Euro/m2.
One need approx 3 to 3.5m2/ jacket ( A-2 Hartmann etc.. ).
Bad 3rd class quality…approx 40-50 Eur/m2… still 3 to 3.5m2 for a Hartmann or A-2 jacket…
Just wondering how the low cost makers can pay decent human respecting salaries and all others with a real quality ( italian ) HH jacket considering their selling prices..
What kind of HH do they use or what do they pay for their employees?… just wondering.

Brice,

I am not sure if this is still valid, but FS's earlier HH came from Russia and Turkey.
From what I remember these were so called "wet blue hides", which means that they are chrome-tanned leather, tanned with chromium sulfate and chromium salts that give it a light blue tint. This leather was tanned, but neither dried, dyed nor finished.

I would assume that they ranged more between 20-30 EUR, even lower...

These were not ready-to-produce-jackets hides, so Shawn probably made the further steps in-house, with the obvious price advantages in labor costs.

Since then he has been touring Italian tanneries for additional sources, so it might be that the above mentioned hides are no longer used (at least not for the A-2 / flight jacket production).

Best regards,

Ties

 

[Pilot]

Brice,

I am not sure if this is still valid, but FS's earlier HH came from Russia and Turkey.
From what I remember these were so called "wet blue hides", which means that they are chrome-tanned leather, tanned with chromium sulfate and chromium salts that give it a light blue tint. This leather was tanned, but neither dried, dyed nor finished.

I would assume that they ranged more between 20-30 EUR, even lower...

These were not ready-to-produce-jackets hides, so Shawn probably made the further steps in-house, with the obvious price advantages in labor costs.

Since then he has been touring Italian tanneries for additional sources, so it might be that the above mentioned hides are no longer used (at least not for the A-2 / flight jacket production).

Best regards,

Ties

Thankyou Ties.
Not so far , price wise , based on my experience with low cost low quality leather/or HH.
40Euro/m2.
We all know that low cost countries have other salaries, social insurances/protection and environmental protection standards.
All in all they can offer jackets with a price tag arround 300 Euro.
All am considering, hmm.

 

[Southoftheborder]

Sounds like the aniline finish they tried out in the early 2000s. I knew some others who had it, but they said the darkness from water went away with drying -- did you get drenched?

Bigger question, did it shrink?

Had my HH 1401 for almost 25 years now, been in rain and snow -- no shrinkage. But it's veg-tanned and spray-finish, so it's pretty rugged.

No it didn't shrink but it didn't fade back much either. I moved it on not long after.