Is this patch original?

[asiamiles]

I know nothing about patches, but would like to get an ARS patch for an L-2B.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-60s-AIR-R ... 500wt_1314

To be honest I would prefer the "older" one seen here

http://www.ljmilitaria.com/usafsosairco ... ue_service

but if the eBay one is genuine it should do.

 

[unclegrumpy]

Both of those vendors are very reputable, both online or in person.

As far as the patches go, I think they are accurately described and original. I think a lot depends on what vintage the jacket you are dealing with is. If the later 1960's patch will work, I am sure you will be able to overcome it's newer features once you get a price for the earlier one. Did you ask for the older version's price yet....it might make you gasp.

Also, if you decide what you really want and "need" is the earlier version, those are very good pictures of what they should look like. Given enough time, those show up on eBay.....and do not tend to be overly expensive when they do....maybe $25 to $50.

 

[asiamiles]

Both of those vendors are very reputable, both online or in person.

As far as the patches go, I think they are accurately described and original. I think a lot depends on what vintage the jacket you are dealing with is. If the later 1960's patch will work, I am sure you will be able to overcome it's newer features once you get a price for the earlier one. Did you ask for the older version's price yet....it might make you gasp.

Thank you. I've sent an e-mail asking about the earlier one as it is certainly the nicer of the two; as I'm not a collector a quality replica of it would suffice, but a Google search didn't bring up anything.

 

[unclegrumpy]

Thank you. I've sent an e-mail asking about the earlier one as it is certainly the nicer of the two; as I'm not a collector a quality replica of it would suffice

I don't think that is a patch that is commonly reproduced, and if it was, the quality would not be up the originals. The earlier one is also not rare, but it is not easy to find either, but out there.

 

[watchmanjimg]

Both patches appear perfectly legitimate. I'm not sure if the version stated as earlier on LJ Militaria's website is in fact the original design or merely a variant, but either would be suitable for a pre-1966 impression.

While I've had several very successful dealings with LJ, I must agree with UncleGrumpy that some of his prices will have you reaching for the nitroglycerin. This fact alone militates in favor of the more common version. Here's one on a nice '61 Skyline MA-1 in my collection:

 

[unclegrumpy]

Both patches appear perfectly legitimate. I'm not sure if the version stated as earlier on LJ Militaria's website is in fact the original design or merely a variant, but either would be suitable for a pre-1966 impression.

Note the larger size of the earlier version....I can't remember off the top of my head the year...it might be 1966....when the AF standardized the patch size to the smaller version.

 

[watchmanjimg]

Both patches appear perfectly legitimate. I'm not sure if the version stated as earlier on LJ Militaria's website is in fact the original design or merely a variant, but either would be suitable for a pre-1966 impression.

Note the larger size of the earlier version....I can't remember off the top of my head the year...it might be 1966....when the AF standardized the patch size to the smaller version.

I'm not sure what year the smaller size patch was standardized either, but I mentioned 1966 because that's the year Air Rescue Service became Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Service (its name changed back to ARS in 1989 until it was disbanded in 1993). I'd be willing to bet that original ARS patches will be at least 4" tall.

 

[unclegrumpy]

I'm not sure what year the smaller size patch was standardized either, but I mentioned 1966 because that's the year Air Rescue Service became Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Service (its name changed back to ARS in 1989 until it was disbanded in 1993). I'd be willing to bet that original ARS patches will be at least 4" tall.

Excellent point! I did not look at the ARS's history, but you are right. If we spent the time to combine the specifics of the unit's history with AF regulations, we could probably come up with a fairly narrow time frame for that earlier patch.

 

[watchmanjimg]

With the numerous changes in USAF unit designations, insignia, uniform colors, et cetera it's tough to keep track sometimes, but late '50s to mid '60s is a rough estimate. If you scroll through LJ's pics there's a 1959-dated ARS history volume bearing the insignia on the cover. Both upper and lower scrolls are featured. I keep thinking I've seen a very early ARS patch without the scrolls similar to the '50s SAC design, but I'm unable to prove it at the moment.

 

[watchmanjimg]

Oops, double post.

 

[watchmanjimg]

Mods, please delete extra posts.

 

[unclegrumpy]

With the numerous changes in USAF unit designations, insignia, uniform colors, et cetera it's tough to keep track sometimes, but late '50s to mid '60s is a rough estimate. I keep thinking I've seen a very early ARS patch without the scrolls similar to the '50s SAC design, but I'm unable to prove it at the moment.

Without doing any serious research, I am thinking exactly what you are with the late '50s to mid '60s time frame.

As far as the scrolls, I have noticed the same thing as well. One other thing I have seen with other mid 1950's AF patches, is sometimes the scrolls came in separate pieces. They usually wore the patches with the scrolls, but when we find those patches today, the scrolls have often gone missing.

 

[asiamiles]

Both patches appear perfectly legitimate. I'm not sure if the version stated as earlier on LJ Militaria's website is in fact the original design or merely a variant, but either would be suitable for a pre-1966 impression.

While I've had several very successful dealings with LJ, I must agree with UncleGrumpy that some of his prices will have you reaching for the nitroglycerin.

You're not too far off in my reaction to the price which even exceeds what I would want to pay for a plain Buzz L-2B to patch up!

Would it be possible to see a larger pic of your jacket?

My interest is simply a result of watching FLIGHT FROM ASHIYA yesterday, and I suddenly thought this might be a good patch to put on an L-2B; in the film their L-2B's are unpatched and they have the patches on their flightsuits, but as we see, ARS jackets were sometimes patched.

It's interesting that some of the patches are US made and others Japanese made, and explains why the latter are those being worn in the film, which incidentally was a Japanese co-production. I do think the Japanese patch is much nicer and seemingly slightly larger, but I'm wondering if it made more for a flightsuit than a jacket? Do you guys think it would look okay on a jacket? Would love to try and find some 50's~60's photos of ARS jackets to see just what was being worn in reality.

 

[unclegrumpy]

I do think the Japanese patch is much nicer and seemingly slightly larger, but I'm wondering if it made more for a flightsuit than a jacket? Do you guys think it would look okay on a jacket?

Either version of the patch could go on either a flight suit or a jacket. The difference is more about a very slight difference in time period, the country of manufacture, and manufacturing variation.

I do agree, the Japanese made patches often look nicer, though the details of them can sometimes vary more than there US made counterparts. Meaning, it might be hard to find that exact patch, but you will eventually find something close.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

i found this after reading this post, it sparked my interest as I just found a small grouping with ARRS patches that some may have seen here. I posted pics of them with the N-2B I bought at an estate sale a couple of weeks ago. It may shed some light on dating the patches in question, or maybe this part is already known. Here it is anyway-

The Air Rescue Service (ARS) is a disestablished organization in the United States Air Force. Previously a subcommand of the Military Air Transport Service (MATS), a USAF major command (MAJCOM), ARS was redesignated as the Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Service (ARRS) on 1 Jan 1966 when MATS was redesignated as the Military Airlift Command (MAC). As ARRS, it retained the same subcommand status with MAC.

 

[asiamiles]

Either version of the patch could go on either a flight suit or a jacket. The difference is more about a very slight difference in time period, the country of manufacture, and manufacturing variation.

I do agree, the Japanese made patches often look nicer, though the details of them can sometimes vary more than there US made counterparts. Meaning, it might be hard to find that exact patch, but you will eventually find something close.

There's an almost home-made feel to the Japanese patch, which is appealing. "Close" is fine by me; not after anything specific, more something I like.

I could almost be tempted to patch my B-15C if I can get a nice enough patch. Kind of regretting I sold that L-2B with the "Buzz Rickson" nametag on the left chest as a jacket might look odd with just a single patch on the right chest and I don't really like having my own name or someone else's name on a jacket. Is there something else that could legitimately go on the left chest to give the jacket some balance?

 

[watchmanjimg]

i found this after reading this post, it sparked my interest as I just found a small grouping with ARRS patches that some may have seen here. I posted pics of them with the N-2B I bought at an estate sale a couple of weeks ago. It may shed some light on dating the patches in question, or maybe this part is already known. Here it is anyway-

The Air Rescue Service (ARS) is a disestablished organization in the United States Air Force. Previously a subcommand of the Military Air Transport Service (MATS), a USAF major command (MAJCOM), ARS was redesignated as the Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Service (ARRS) on 1 Jan 1966 when MATS was redesignated as the Military Airlift Command (MAC). As ARRS, it retained the same subcommand status with MAC.

This reminds me that awhile back I had a chance to purchase a mint K-2B flightsuit sporting MATS and ARS patches along with plastic-encased Major's rank. I don't remember the contract date of the suit, but clearly it was pre-1966 as evidenced by the configuration of the insignia.

 

[Monsoon]

Well, almost a necro-post......

The small Rescue patch looks to be a current one. They changed from "Aerospace Rescue and Recovery" back to "Air Rescue Service" a few years ago.

The larger patches on that website are the ones that were used in the '50s and '60s. I have about three of those that my father gave me from when he flew with Rescue.

 

[watchmanjimg]

Well, almost a necro-post......

The small Rescue patch looks to be a current one. They changed from "Aerospace Rescue and Recovery" back to "Air Rescue Service" a few years ago.

The larger patches on that website are the ones that were used in the '50s and '60s. I have about three of those that my father gave me from when he flew with Rescue.

I'd agree that a small ARS patch would be of more recent vintage, but in any case the organization hasn't existed for 19 years. When you say the small patch "looks to be a current one" which patch do you mean? I didn't see a smaller version anywhere in this thread, and come to think of it I've never actually seen a 3" ARS patch. My smaller examples are the post-1966 ARRS type.

 

[Monsoon]

I'd agree that a small ARS patch would be of more recent vintage, but in any case the organization hasn't existed for 19 years. When you say the small patch "looks to be a current one" which patch do you mean? I didn't see a smaller version anywhere in this thread, and come to think of it I've never actually seen a 3" ARS patch. My smaller examples are the post-1966 ARRS type.

This small one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-60s-AIR-R ... 500wt_1314

I don't think it's from the 50s/60s. The ones that said ARRS were about that size, tho. And when they switched back to ARS, I think they stayed the same size. I know some gunners had ones this size that said, "Combat Rescue" on the top.