For discussion: 23rd Fighter Group Patched A-2

[a2jacketpatches]

I've looked at this jacket as a put together from the very beginning and only made judgement as to the condition, age, and wear of the patch. Hadn't even bothered with the story. Heard too many over the years.

Last story I heard was about a half length Mark 2 navy knife that was so worn because the guy used it to find land mines in Korea. Looked like he went AWOL and dug his way back to America with it.

 

[Stony]

If the price stays at its current $24.50, it could be a good deal.

 

[Roughwear]

I suspect the big hitters will come in near the end of the auction. Personally I would not touch it as there is no documented provenance and the jacket has condition issues.

 

[JDAM]

The ebay patch was produced in the UK in the 80's. There are hundreds out there, various squadrons.

Below is a real one (23rd FG or 74th FS) that I suspect the ebay fake attempted to model itself on:

It is difficult to spot good from bad by just an image alone. Half decent fakes or reproductions like the one in the ebay auction can deceive. It is so much easier to tell if they're 'right' when they're 'in-hand'. I suspect this will sell to someone who has a little (dangerous) amount of information and some money to spend. I would guess it's actual worth is about $200, as A-2 spares. If it were real, the jacket/patch might be worth 2.5k even minus a history and in its poor condition.

 

[unclegrumpy]

The ebay patch was produced in the UK in the 80's. There are hundreds out there, various squadrons.

It is difficult to spot good from bad by just an image alone. Half decent fakes or reproductions like the one in the ebay auction can deceive. It is so much easier to tell if they're 'right' when they're 'in-hand'. I suspect this will sell to someone who has a little (dangerous) amount of information and some money to spend. I would guess it's actual worth is about $200, as A-2 spares. If it were real, the jacket/patch might be worth 2.5k even minus a history and in its poor condition.

Very well stated!

I agree, the time period of this patch is very late 1980's to the early 1990's....and yes, you are right, there were many other squadrons to pick from.....like 100's of them.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

I was actually wondering why you made no other comments other than the initial post and was about to ask last night what you thought. Was this some kind of test?

 

[JDAM]

I was actually wondering why you made no other comments other than the initial post and was about to ask last night what you thought. Was this some kind of test?

No test, just wanted to prompt a discussion. Frankly, unless one knew for sure, then I can't see how anyone could tell one way or another. It has some dodgy characteristics but could be OK... maybe. I bet if the good patch I posted above was on the same jacket in the same auction then many people would also say it was a fake, or at least have doubts about its authenticity. And that would be fair enough.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Discussion prompted, lots of good points made, but still feels like you knew all along as we sort of debated a few things. I feel kind of foolish about only one point I made, that I was thinking much older than the 80's.

On the other hand, I'm knowledgeable enough not to buy from dealers. Dealers can take handfuls of provenance and make up groupings to fit all day long, and that makes all the difference to some buyers. It happens more often than not. As you said "unless someone knew for sure" Well one thing I do know for sure is that buying a jacket alone like this from Ebay or dealer is most likely falling for trickery or the breaking up of a historical grouping. I buy only from Estates, yard sales, and flea markets. And I buy as much of a grouping as possible and keep all history intact when I flip it. Can't say I've been tricked this way ever.

 

[unclegrumpy]

Discussion prompted, lots of good points made, but still feels like you knew all along as we sort of debated a few things. I feel kind of foolish about only one point I made, that I was thinking much older than the 80's.

On the other hand, I'm knowledgeable enough not to buy from dealers. Dealers can take handfuls of provenance and make up groupings to fit all day long, and that makes all the difference to some buyers. I buy only from Estates, yard sales, and flea markets.

Don't feel foolish! You have the disadvantage of probably not being in this long enough to either have been screwed 30 years ago by an old fake sold as being a righteous original or seen 100's of painted leather and embroidered squadron patches sold in piles for $15 each/10 for $100, your choice.

As far as estates and yards sales, they are not always safe either. There are lots of reunion patches out there and sometimes the vets were collectors. I remember an estate I went to a few years ago that had some fantastic Vietnam Special Forces patches and related items....all at big prices, and this stuff can get very expensive. People were fighting over everything, but virtually all of it was fake...some very good old fakes, some nicely sewn on original jungle jackets, but none the less sadly all fakes.

I don't think it is fair to throw every dealer into the trash bin. Some are very honest, and know their stuff. However, I agree that there are a lot of bullish*t artists, fakers, liars, and cheats too. Stay away from them.

The best thing is to know what you are buying and to be able to make your own judgements. That is not always easy, but I think if you look at enough stuff, ask enough questions, and do your homework, some of these things become easier. Though not always....because there is always something that you have never seen before....always.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Foolish in a way that the answer to this jacket in particular was there from the very start but I went on to judge the patch based on my experience and knowledge. Had no idea I was to learn a lesson in the end and would have preferred a more straight forward " hey this jacket is bogus because"

Bottom line, I would never pay even 200- for this jacket even though I'm very aware of what a real one would be worth. All because of the many ways it could possibly be bad. The condition even eliminates yanking the patch for the jacket.

Not throwing all dealers into the trash bin either, but they most certainly are another factor as an item passes through many hands. Never having been screwed by a fake item but screwed loose by many dealers, They are a threat to me more than a questionable item.

Estate sales are full of modern items as well, reunion patches, etc. etc. But for the most part never intentionally out to screw anyone and usually within my price range.

Anyway, pretty it's much irrelevant that I called this fake an older fake than it really was, a fake is a fake is a fake. Just glad that common sense leads me in the right direction toward the real stuff. I know where to look and how to buy. Being an expert at determining the age of fakes is last on my list.

 

[unclegrumpy]

It is not so much being an "expert" on the age of the fakes, but having seen enough of them over the years, and watching the shenanigans of the folks that try to push them off as real. I totally agree, the age is really irrelevant; fossilized dung or fresh dung, is well, still all just dung.

I have been taken before, especially when I first started collecting. A few of the items are pretty laughable to think about now, not just fakes of something, but really fantasy pieces. And, it was a lot of money to me then, sometimes all I had to spend. Back then, there was no internet, and not many books available on anything, so knowledge was sometimes the toughest commodity to obtain.

I can't see any fault in your thinking, and have no doubt that even if you encountered this jacket in another venue that might lead one to believe it had a chance to be real, that you would come to the exact same conclusion.

In the end, the real point of all this discussion, is to keep our friends from falling victim to these bastards. And, in the process, maybe pick up a few tid bits of information along the way that might be useful when we encounter something in the brush ourselves.

 

[dmar836]

Let's not get into the keeping of groupings together. :?

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Then why comment? I only mention it because I am always mindful of that when purchasing or selling.

Are you talking about all of those flight suits I bought at the same place? Not a single name anywhere and the two blue bunny suits got over 500- a piece as opposed to other offers of less than half.

Or Lt. Shew? I'll always stick by my decision on that stuff because everything that was named to him was kept together preserving his history. Some may frown upon me selling his extra un-named falling apart crusher, carlisle kit, 1960's wooded pilot wing plaque, and a few other items without ID, but that's the only way I could manage saving what I did. Otherwise, I guarantee that every piece of his history would be in different parts of the globe right now. I kept all items that were named and in good condition together and sold as a historical grouping. Unfortunately, even after standing at the front of the line for over 4 hours ( 3AM-7AM ) several other pickers of anything and everything were there as well. A woman grabbed his dog tags and wouldn't give them up simply because my interest in them made her think they were worth a lot of money. That's the case with most pickers and I like to think that Lt. would be pleased with my actions.

I have more time and patience than money and my funds have been somewhat limited for a while now. I've taken risks in order to save groupings large and small just to keep the history together. I've come home to my wife with a pile of military items and had to explain why some of her bill money is missing.

Think of it as sacrificing a few to save the majority without killing myself in the process.

 

[dmar836]

Yeah, I should not have said that. Sorry.
I pride myself in not starting drama so I should not have said that.
Accept my apologies.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Accepted, nothing to question about how I do things. Just hope you can see that I really am saving stuff from the Ebay vultures. Really, if you only knew the crap I deal with in Vegas. This city is so isolated that that the pickers post false estate sale ads to send others on a wild goose chase. And I recently over heard my no.1 competitor say to another competitor " I don't give a F...K about this stuff, it's all business to me "

 

[JDAM]

Well, at US$700-ish seems it didn't fool anyone. I'm surprised.

 

[Silver Surfer]

at the beginning of this thread, i mentioned that the tiger on the ebay jac looked like a decal [possibly a decal], ie: too uniform in the paint handling. the one that simon took the time to post a pic of, confirms this. rarely, do i see "perfectly" painted patches. this would stand to reason, as the majority were made in the field, by nationals, or aaf personel. some were talented, some were not. whats more, sometimes the patch makers had access to quality materials, and paint, and sometimes they used what was at hand. why was white used so often on painted patches, and nose art? because lead white was available to anyone, everywhere, and it was cheap. also, that is why when you see an original a-2 with white painted areas, those areas of paint are usually thicker then the other colored areas. unless highly diluted [like a wash], lead white is a goopy, thick paint.

 

[6148th T.C.Squadron]

Most of the period decals I have seen the colors bleed over the trace lines, but I am no expert. Similar to this.